Ophir
Well-Known Member
You're wrong John. But that is a discussion you and I can one on one.
I guess I need to make a sticker that says "39%er and 29%er". I am shocked this passed. I thought for once we were going to get together as a pilot group.
SKYW Pay package results
- Thread starter DV8Pilot
- Start date
You're wrong John. But that is a discussion you and I can one on one.
I guess I need to make a sticker that says "39%er and 29%er". I am shocked this passed. I thought for once we were going to get together as a pilot group.
Ophir
Well-Known Member
Flying the 11th and driving to the airline ski race on the 12th. Soon though
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
Since it appears you know Josh, how are SKW employees treated? No, I don't work for them, but of the 15 or so I know well that do fly for them, they don't feel mistreated, regardless of what passes and doesn't pass. Let's hear from the SKW drivers on here...are you treated badly? Just curious to what those that actually know have to say.
Skinnah
Well-Known Member
I've been here for a little over 1.5 years and have not had any major problems. Give respect and you will be respected. Minus the lack of unity among the pilot group it is a good company to work for as far as work rules and QOL.... My QOL kicks ass right now and that is all I care about. I Block 45-55 hours a month, credit 83 hours a month, and have 18 days off. That's hard to find at any airline....
I'm leaving SkyWest after over 4 years.
First off, the religious argument is stupid. There may be some utah cultural issues (which are sometimes difficult to separate from LDS issues) that effect the way our upper management thinks, but SkyWest is far from a theocracy. Most of the higher ups are about as far from the LDS ideal as is possible, ask anyone who's been to pick up an airplane in YUL about the quality strip joints up there... It's all about the bottom line for these guys and overall, they do an exceptional job of managing the company and a pretty average job of taking care of their employees.
They do a good job of recruiting the right kind of people and then keeping them feeling a certain way about the company. As tired an analogy as the "kool aid" talk is, I think it's pretty accurate at SkyWest; the company works very hard to promote the idea that our company is different from all the other ones out there. Somehow, intagibly, our people are different, better, than everyone else. The funny thing to me is the disconnect between this idea of elitism coupled with bargain basement compensation. Unfortunately, the propoganda works that way, too. Our pilots lack a unified, unbiased representative body and, as such, there is no one with the authority to question or challenge assertions made by our management. So, while we have the best group of people in the industry, apparently we should settle for less than the best compensation because we are the best paid company that will stay in business (they really suggest that anyone paid more than we are is too expensive to compete and will either shrink or lower their costs to match ours. Unfortunately, there has been anecdotal evidence as of late to confirm this, untrue as it may be.)
The key measure of how succesful our management is at their job is the results of votes like the pay package and the union drive. The people running this company clearly know what they have to say to convince a strong majority of our pilots. These votes also indicate to me that I am, apparently, not working with people who share my view of my place and our company's place in the world. For those of you working at SkyWest who expect the pilot group to change, I suggest you upgrade as quickly as possible and move on as quickly as possible. My proverbial forehead is scarred and bruised from banging my head against the brick wall for over 4 years. I have been continually surprised by how much this pilot group is willing to accept, always expecting the latest insult to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Apparently, this camel is much stronger than I thought.
I believe SkyWest will continue to be a strong company and an above-average, but never exceptional place to work. It's not the kind of place I want to retire from, though, with careful planning and 30+ years of somewhat frugal living (or two incomes and just moderately extravagant living), I think it's possible.
I think there are definite benefts to union representation, which is why I volunteered for the OC, but those of you who think SkyWest is to blame for your negotiating difficulty, are falling victim to the same mind-game the pro-company SkyWest guys are. Somehow, because you are ALPA, you are better than SkyWest pilots. Guys, I've worked for an ALPA carrier before 9/11, pilots are pretty much the same. I have respect for the kind of people who are willing to stand up and work hard to negotiate for industry-leading compensation, but please point to any regional that has made substantial progress in the last seven years regardless of their union status. SkyWest isn't helping in this regard, but they're not the cause of the problem, either. Our biggest problem during the union drive, I think, is that many of the ALPA promoters lost credibility when trying to explain to SkyWest pilots how bad we have it. Again, there are numerous of valid reasons for SkyWest pilots to vote in a union, but to suggest that SkyWest is somehow the bottom of the industry just makes you look dishonest and pilots, especially the paranoid, kool-aid guzzling cheerleaders SkyWest loves, don't respond well to that kind of talk.
First off, the religious argument is stupid. There may be some utah cultural issues (which are sometimes difficult to separate from LDS issues) that effect the way our upper management thinks, but SkyWest is far from a theocracy. Most of the higher ups are about as far from the LDS ideal as is possible, ask anyone who's been to pick up an airplane in YUL about the quality strip joints up there... It's all about the bottom line for these guys and overall, they do an exceptional job of managing the company and a pretty average job of taking care of their employees.
They do a good job of recruiting the right kind of people and then keeping them feeling a certain way about the company. As tired an analogy as the "kool aid" talk is, I think it's pretty accurate at SkyWest; the company works very hard to promote the idea that our company is different from all the other ones out there. Somehow, intagibly, our people are different, better, than everyone else. The funny thing to me is the disconnect between this idea of elitism coupled with bargain basement compensation. Unfortunately, the propoganda works that way, too. Our pilots lack a unified, unbiased representative body and, as such, there is no one with the authority to question or challenge assertions made by our management. So, while we have the best group of people in the industry, apparently we should settle for less than the best compensation because we are the best paid company that will stay in business (they really suggest that anyone paid more than we are is too expensive to compete and will either shrink or lower their costs to match ours. Unfortunately, there has been anecdotal evidence as of late to confirm this, untrue as it may be.)
The key measure of how succesful our management is at their job is the results of votes like the pay package and the union drive. The people running this company clearly know what they have to say to convince a strong majority of our pilots. These votes also indicate to me that I am, apparently, not working with people who share my view of my place and our company's place in the world. For those of you working at SkyWest who expect the pilot group to change, I suggest you upgrade as quickly as possible and move on as quickly as possible. My proverbial forehead is scarred and bruised from banging my head against the brick wall for over 4 years. I have been continually surprised by how much this pilot group is willing to accept, always expecting the latest insult to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Apparently, this camel is much stronger than I thought.
I believe SkyWest will continue to be a strong company and an above-average, but never exceptional place to work. It's not the kind of place I want to retire from, though, with careful planning and 30+ years of somewhat frugal living (or two incomes and just moderately extravagant living), I think it's possible.
I think there are definite benefts to union representation, which is why I volunteered for the OC, but those of you who think SkyWest is to blame for your negotiating difficulty, are falling victim to the same mind-game the pro-company SkyWest guys are. Somehow, because you are ALPA, you are better than SkyWest pilots. Guys, I've worked for an ALPA carrier before 9/11, pilots are pretty much the same. I have respect for the kind of people who are willing to stand up and work hard to negotiate for industry-leading compensation, but please point to any regional that has made substantial progress in the last seven years regardless of their union status. SkyWest isn't helping in this regard, but they're not the cause of the problem, either. Our biggest problem during the union drive, I think, is that many of the ALPA promoters lost credibility when trying to explain to SkyWest pilots how bad we have it. Again, there are numerous of valid reasons for SkyWest pilots to vote in a union, but to suggest that SkyWest is somehow the bottom of the industry just makes you look dishonest and pilots, especially the paranoid, kool-aid guzzling cheerleaders SkyWest loves, don't respond well to that kind of talk.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Man I know Skywest doesn't have a union and all but all this talk is making it sound like Skywest is a Mesa-like bottom feeder. XJT, ASA(barely) are the only companies I can think of with better pay rates.
I talked about this earlier at the M&G here in ATL, I think all the Union hoo la la and pay increase talk is just the small voice of the minority trying to talk to every runner in the Boston Marathon. The focus of the majority of regional pilots is to get in, stay low, under the radar, get your time and get out. The only people that care about this payrate stuff are the career regional guys. Same thing happened at ASA with the new contract. The 200 pilots who mainly get their time and get out voted in the contract and loved it. The 700 guys, mainly senior captains remaining at ASA for their career hated it.
The regionals are nothing but a rat race where pilots will gladly step over another to get ahead. They will gladly except a lower rate so there is more growth and upgrade time hits rock bottom. Thats how the regionals work and will always work. I like the enthusiasm many of you have towards improving the industry, I just think its bettered served at the majors.
I talked about this earlier at the M&G here in ATL, I think all the Union hoo la la and pay increase talk is just the small voice of the minority trying to talk to every runner in the Boston Marathon. The focus of the majority of regional pilots is to get in, stay low, under the radar, get your time and get out. The only people that care about this payrate stuff are the career regional guys. Same thing happened at ASA with the new contract. The 200 pilots who mainly get their time and get out voted in the contract and loved it. The 700 guys, mainly senior captains remaining at ASA for their career hated it.
The regionals are nothing but a rat race where pilots will gladly step over another to get ahead. They will gladly except a lower rate so there is more growth and upgrade time hits rock bottom. Thats how the regionals work and will always work. I like the enthusiasm many of you have towards improving the industry, I just think its bettered served at the majors.
little_cricket
Well-Known Member
Well said Chris...
The religion argument is lame!!!
The religion argument is lame!!!
berge7f9
Well-Known Member
Same Here. Once I was hell bent on jumping ship from ASA to SKYW; but now (with the 2nd year pay raise around the corner) its not worth sitting at the bottom of the seniority list while waiting forever to get based in SLC or DEN;
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Ask how many of those career regional guys started out that way. I'd wager that it's a very small percentage. I know that's the case here at Pinnacle. Hardly any of the people that are stuck under the glass ceiling here started out their career saying "Oh, I want to fly for Pinnacle." The problem comes when the majors stop hiring (which is eventually gonna happen again, like it or not) and people get stuck at the regionals. Now those people that were there to get in, get their time and get out are stuck there. They've become a product of their own apathy. I don't WANT to get stuck at Pinnacle, but I'd like to know it wouldn't be a crappy place if something happens and I do get stuck here. THAT'S why I fight for better pay and benefits.
In addition to that (and this is kinda what John was touching on I think), if you let the pay stagnate or (worse) erode at the regional level, the majors will start outsourcing more flying to them b/c it's cheaper. Net result: fewer jobs for those that want to "get their time and get out." Once again, they've been hit in the face with their own apathy. Take a look at NWA for example. Reducing the DC-9s, but curiously they're not replacing them. Why? B/c Mesaba and Compass are already flying the replacements, the -900 and the E170. The only reason they're not slowing down hiring is b/c guys are bailing to better jobs or retiring. They barely managed to hang on to their pensions, so the age 65 rule isn't reducing their attrition as much as some places. If scope were kept at 50 seats, those planes would have gone to mainline, and you'd see an INCREASE in hiring rather than hiring remaining the same.
You don't work in a vacuum. Decisions made at your regional DO affect others. For example, ASA getting better pay rates gives us something to bring to the table in our negotiations. If ASA had said "Fine. We just want to get our time and go to Delta," then we wouldn't have as much to go on in our negotiations. To take it a step further, Delta pilots would be fighting their own management come contract time b/c management would be saying "Well, ASA will fly the 76 seaters for $XXX. Why should we pay you this much more to fly an airplane that only has 30-40 more seats?" Once again, those that wanted to get their time and move on face a lower potential income assuming they DO move on.
Marcus, you've come a long way in your thinking on this. Don't get sidetracked now.
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
Excellant post Steve! What this new generation of pilots forgets to realize, is that it's more than just pay. Pay is the basically just the skin, but the work rules issues are the meat and bones of the contract. And to reinterate what Steve said, those guys are going to bitch the most when the industry goes ito the next downturn and they're stuck at the regional level for longer than they expected.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
I know all that stuff makes sense and is true, but to make that happen you need to have a unified pilot group all striving for the same goal. While that can be done very easily at the Major level, I think it is impossible at the regional level where most see the job as a stepping stone and are out for themselves, hence the "rat race" You guys have great ideas to fix regional pay, but are 5 people going to be able to chuck 100,000 starfish stranded on the beach back into the sea?
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I got a 99% "yes" vote on a strike here at Pinnacle that says you're wrong.....
So, you're saying just to throw our hands up b/c it's tough? Sorry. I'd rather go down fighting than just say "Well, what management wants is inevitable."
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Thats different, Pinnacle has almost rock bottom rates. Nobody wants to be broke. Skywest already had near industry leading pay and just got a 15% pay increase(basically matched ASA's contract). Trying to raise the bar further than that is what i'm talking about. Hard to do in an industry where companies have to compete to be the lowest bidder and pilots are thirsty for growth and upgrade time. Can be done at a major, as Air Tran threw that trash back at management. Good luck at the regional level.
Nick
Well-Known Member
Well I'm glad the pilot group attitude at the regional I'm at seems to be different than that.
What you say is probably the attitude of many, and, from the outside looking in, that is the VERY problem. The regionals should be a place where someone can spend a career. I want to fly for a major one day, too, but I've talked to numerous regional captains, who have no desire to move on. They like their QOL, pay, etc., where they are, and want to stay put, even though they are young, and certainly meet the requirements to send in an app. to the majors. Not to mention, the people who want to fly for the majors, but will never get the chance. That person could be you, me, or anybody else here.
Another problem, is that pilots are too willing to give up one thing, in order to gain in another. I had a regional captain recently tell me that he would gladly take a 20% pay cut, to get a few more days off per month. This captain works for a certain IAH based airline, with a contract becoming ammendable in 2010. It is that attitude, that will end up with the other pilots for the airline, taking a 20% pay cut, but in exchange, they may get a couple of extra days off, if that. That probably will not go over well with the majority of the other pilots. Pilots need to get rid of the ME attitude, and look at the WHOLE picture.
I don't know about others, but I am NOT willing to take a pay cut, in order to upgrade in one year. I'd rather spend five years as an FO, and know that I have a future at a regional, than to be banking on the idea that I will get hired by a major, so I need to upgrade ASAP, so now I am flying a DC-9 sized airplane for less than half the pay of a major captain, who is flying a DC-9. That is crazy! It doesn't make any sense, at all. If you think about it, that attitude will also reach the major level. When the majors see guys fying a DC-9 sized airplane, for less than half of what their pilots are flying DC-9s for, how long is it, until the majors start forcing those pay rates. These very pilots who have this ME attitude, will also erode away the majors, just like the regionals. Better to reach them now, before that happens. If that is their attitude now, then they will gladly scr3w everybody else, at their major, so that they can move into a 777 quicker, and upgrade quicker. Think about it.
mastermags
Well-Known Member *giggity*
Marcus, you were not at ASA during the time that negotiations were going on. Let me tell you, people CARED. The ones that didn't care were the..... yep, first year FO's. ALPA better start eduacating the new guys because these new FO's have a large line ahead of them in reaching the majors. Come negotiation time it will be up to them to improve the contracts again.
Oh yeah, and the Big 10 sucks.
Oh yeah, and the Big 10 sucks.