skybus

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

To further the logic: Why let JetBlue off the hook?

I don't. Correct me if I'm wrong, Velo, but I don't think you do either.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

What about entering the profession via the Gulfstream PFJ program? You could say they are working for less and lowering the bar. Do streamers fit the definition?

If the "streamer" is aware of the contempt that most pilots have for PFT and willfully enters the profession that way anyway, then yes. With most "streamers," however, they are completely ignorant of how the industry works and just don't know any better. Big difference from someone who willfully undercuts his union brothers by taking a job at a non-union bottom feeder. Everyone in this industry is fully aware of how Skybus and Virgin America are undercutting payrates and work rules. They can't make the argument that they didn't know any better.

 

[kellwolf]

Wow, this one went downhill fast. For the record, Disney attractions employees are unionized. Union membership is voluntary, and those not in the union were often referred to as "scabs" b/c they got the union benefits without actually being in the union. Just sayin.'

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

For the record, Disney attractions employees are unionized. Union membership is voluntary, and those not in the union were often referred to as "scabs" b/c they got the union benefits without actually being in the union. Just sayin.'

Exactly. Perfect example. This is common in every union outside of aviation.

 

[CapnJim]

I provided a dictionary definition. Plain and simple. That's a fact, not an opinion. If you want to try to reinterpret a simple definition, then have at it. For everyone else, the definition is clear.

Arooo? Dude, are you smelling what you're shoveling? I'm the one who provided the dictionary definition, and you're the one trying to reinterpret it. It's bad enough that you're making up definitions, now you're making up posts!

Speaking of, You have yet to address my hypothetical 'jerk' response to your made-up interpretation, and if your inablility to follow who-said-what in this thread is any indication, you probably can't.

 

[CapnJim]

Wow, this one went downhill fast. For the record, Disney attractions employees are unionized. Union membership is voluntary, and those not in the union were often referred to as "scabs" b/c they got the union benefits without actually being in the union. Just sayin.'

Exactly. Perfect example. This is common in every union outside of aviation.

You're getting more and more nonsensical as we go. Please try and follow this, if you need to go back and re-read it, do so as many times as necessary:

The Disney workers who are non-union and working in a unionized workgroup are referred to as scabs, in accordance with definitions (1) and (4). If you can come up with a pilot group that is non-union and working within a unionized pilot workgroup, you're in business. But guess what? Skybus dosen't qualify.

You don't even seem to understand the definition that you wrongly claimed to have offered. Please, do us all a favor and don't run for any union negotiating commmitte. You need more practice.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Arooo? Dude, are you smelling what you're shoveling? I'm the one who provided the dictionary definition, and you're the one trying to reinterpret it.

Looks like you need to go back and read a little bit more carefully. I first posted the definition in post # 42. You then reposted the definition in post # 66 (that's 24 posts later). I think you're the one "shoveling"

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The Disney workers who are non-union and working in a unionized workgroup are referred to as scabs, in accordance with definitions (1) and (4). If you can come up with a pilot group that is non-union and working within a unionized pilot workgroup, you're in business. But guess what? Skybus dosen't qualify.

That's your interpretation. Most would interpret it differently. This is a unionized industry. If you choose to work at a non-union carrier in a union industry, then you fit the definition as far as I'm concerned.

Please, do us all a favor and don't run for any union negotiating commmitte. You need more practice.

Now this is frickin' funny. I've spent over 5 years doing union work, from the committee level, to the MEC level, all the way to the National level for ALPA. I sat on the MEC for three years during contract negotiations. I can provide you with a list of the union positions I've held if you'd like, but the list is quite lengthy. What is your experience in such matters?

 

[CapnJim]

Looks like you need to go back and read a little bit more carefully. I first posted the definition in post # 42. You then reposted the definition in post # 66 (that's 24 posts later). I think you're the one "shoveling"

Ah, you're right. I missed your post on page two. My apologies, and I retract the shoveling comment.

Nonetheless, you're inerpretation is still nonsensical as the definition, by logic, only applies to unionized workgroups. I've proven that I can admit when I'm wrong. Can you?

 

[CapnJim]

That's your interpretation. Most would interpret it differently. This is a unionized industry. If you choose to work at a non-union carrier in a union industry, then you fit the definition as far as I'm concerned.

This is not a totally unionized industry. There are many airlines who are non-union, but that does not make them scabs, by any definition. You can interpret the dictionary any way you like, but you're wrong to use terms like "most" in who would agree with you.

 

[CapnJim]

[/I]Now this is frickin' funny. I've spent over 5 years doing union work, from the committee level, to the MEC level, all the way to the National level for ALPA. I sat on the MEC for three years during contract negotiations. I can provide you with a list of the union positions I've held if you'd like, but the list is quite lengthy. What is your experience in such matters?

ALPA you say? Funny, since your starting pay at AirTran is proportionately less on the 717 than the starting pay we have on the ERJ. According to your interpretation of definition (4), you must think that you're a scab.

Dude, calm down. Take a breath. I'm not calling you a scab. I'm just saying that your interpretation of the definition dosen't make sense.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

This is not a totally unionized industry. There are many airlines who are non-union, but that does not make them scabs, by any definition. You can interpret the dictionary any way you like, but you're wrong to use terms like "most" in who would agree with you.

Over 90% of the air line pilots in this country are unionized, most under ALPA. If you don't that that makes it a "unionized industry," then we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think common sense dictates otherwise, however.

 

[Velocipede]

I don't. Correct me if I'm wrong, Velo, but I don't think you do either.

I won't let them off the hook until they unionize. And, for Cap'n Jim...I agree that the term SCAB should not be watered down. That's why I refer to Virgin, Skybus and jetBlue pilots as "protoscabs."

Why? They have demonstrated the mentality of those who DO cross picket lines.

 

[CapnJim]

Over 90% of the air line pilots in this country are unionized, most under ALPA. If you don't that that makes it a "unionized industry," then we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think common sense dictates otherwise, however.

I didn't say 100%. I said 'not totally unionized'. So we agree on that much, at least.
However, if you want to call that 10% (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that figure. If it's not accurate, it's pribably clase) who are not in a union company 'scabs', then yes, we will have to agree to disagree. I too think common sense dicates otherwise.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

ALPA you say? Funny, since your starting pay at AirTran is proportionately less on the 717 than the starting pay we have on the ERJ. According to your interpretation of definition (4), you must think that you're a scab.

Our starting pay is higher than every major carrier except for DAL, if memory serves. Besides, definition 4 doesn't apply in this case, because we are a union carrier. Defition 4 states " one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms" is a scab. We have union negotiated wages and work under union terms. As far as ExpressJet and proportionality, are you referring to the rate on a per-seat basis? ALPA pay rates have always gone down on a per-seat basis the bigger the airplane gets. A DC-9-10 rate at NWA (a 78-seat airplane) always paid less on a per-seat basis than the 747-400. Nothing new there.

Dude, calm down. Take a breath. I'm not calling you a scab. I'm just saying that your interpretation of the definition dosen't make sense.

You have your interpretation, and I have mine. Let's just leave it at that. Just don't expect a jumpseat ride or a recommendation letter from guys like me and Velo if you work for a pseudo-scab outfit like Skybus or Virgin America.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I won't let them off the hook until they unionize. And, for Cap'n Jim...I agree that the term SCAB should not be watered down. That's why I refer to Virgin, Skybus and jetBlue pilots as "protoscabs."

Why? They have demonstrated the mentality of those who DO cross picket lines.

Agree on all counts, which is the reason I use the term "pseudo-scab."

 

[CapnJim]

I won't let them off the hook until they unionize. And, for Cap'n Jim...I agree that the term SCAB should not be watered down. That's why I refer to Virgin, Skybus and jetBlue pilots as "protoscabs."

Why? They have demonstrated the mentality of those who DO cross picket lines.

V, I agree that they are reprehensible for working for such low-balling wages. I have to ask, however, that you do not place them anywhere near scabs, ancestor or no. They are not that low by a long shot. Nothing is.

Protoscab, psuedoscab, whatever... it waters down what should be the ultimate insult. Please help us keep it that way.

 

[CapnJim]

Our starting pay is higher than every major carrier except for DAL, if memory serves. Besides, definition 4 doesn't apply in this case, because we are a union carrier. Defition 4 states " one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms" is a scab. We have union negotiated wages and work under union terms. As far as ExpressJet and proportionality, are you referring to the rate on a per-seat basis? ALPA pay rates have always gone down on a per-seat basis the bigger the airplane gets. A DC-9-10 rate at NWA (a 78-seat airplane) always paid less on a per-seat basis than the 747-400. Nothing new there.

Agreed. All I'm saying is that defintion (4) does not apply for non-union companies, even those working in the same industry, because if it did then everyone at Six Flags or Universal Studios would be a scab (to use the Disney example), as would almost every worker in America who worked for a company without a union.

You have your interpretation, and I have mine. Let's just leave it at that. Just don't expect a jumpseat ride or a recommendation letter from guys like me and Velo if you work for a pseudo-scab outfit like Skybus or Virgin America.

You know well and good that I have done nothing but bash Skybus in this thread. That you would try to tie me in with the likes of them is reprehensible. Don't expect a jumpseat with me, ever, if that's how you roll. And quit watering down the term scab.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Agreed. All I'm saying is that defintion (4) does not apply for non-union companies, even those working in the same industry, because if it did then everyone at Six Flags or Universal Studios would be a scab (to use the Disney example), as would almost every worker in America who worked for a company without a union.

The amusement park business isn't largely unionized (at least not to the best of my knowledge). The air line pilot profession is. When 90% of the amusement park workers are unionized, but the workers at one or two companies are still non-union hold outs, then the situation might be comparable.

You know well and good that I have done nothing but bash Skybus in this thread. That you would try to tie me in with the likes of them is reprehensible. Don't expect a jumpseat with me, ever if that's how you roll.

Calm down. I didn't mean to refer to you. I was referring to people that work at Skybus, Virgin America, or JetBlue. I believe you work for ExpressJet, don't you?

 

[CaptBill]

Sounds like everyone agrees that working for Skybus is a bad thing, in fact a very bad thing. The last few pages have the good guys beating each other up over what to call them. I agree that the word "SCAB" should be reserved for the worst of the worst. Not sure if Skybus pilots are there yet, but they are on a precipitous course to scab-hood. Now let's drink beer:bandit:, talk about girls and be thankful for our JC friends. :rawk:

 

[CapnJim]

The amusement park business isn't largely unionized (at least not to the best of my knowledge). The air line pilot profession is. When 90% of the amusement park workers are unionized, but the workers at one or two companies are still non-union hold outs, then the situation might be comparable.

Where are percentage points mentioned in the definitions we both provided? I'm tellin' ya, man, you're interpretation don't make no sense. But it's all good. I still think we should reserve the term 'scab' for strikebreakers alone, but I'll continue to hear your arguments.

Calm down. I didn't mean to refer to you. I was referring to people that work at Skybus, Virgin America, or JetBlue. I believe you work for ExpressJet, don't you?

Fair enough. I had to be sure, you understand. Yes, I work for ExpressJet. And yes, anyone who has as much dedication to the preservation of union strength as you have shown is more than welcome on my jumpseat, regardless of our differing ideas as to what constitutes a 'scab'.

I propose we follow calcapt's suggestion. I have some cold beer in the fridge that will more than cool the heat of this almost-flame-war. What say you?