skybus

CapnJim said:
I still think we should reserve the term 'scab' for strikebreakers alone, but I'll continue to hear your arguments.
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I'm not disagreeing, per se. That's why I use the term "pseudo-scab" when talking about these scumbags. My point has always been that they are no better than true strike-breakers. What they've done by working for these kinds of companies does just as much damage to the profession as actually crossing a picket line. I'll always separate the two groups by using different terms, but I don't view one group as any "better" than the other.

And yes, anyone who has as much dedication to the preservation of union strength as you have shown is more than welcome on my jumpseat, regardless of our differing ideas as to what constitutes a 'scab'.
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Ditto.

I propose we follow calcapt's suggestion. I have some cold beer in the fridge that will more than cool the heat of this almost-flame-war. What say you?
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Well, I've got less than 8 hours till my showtime in the morning, so no brewskies for me, but I'll crack open a Sprite. :)
 
"Big difference from someone who willfully undercuts his union brothers by taking a job at a non-union bottom feeder. Everyone in this industry is fully aware of how Skybus and Virgin America are undercutting payrates and work rules. They can't make the argument that they didn't know any better.'

Naw, I'm not buying it. You did the Gulfstream thing and explain it away as not knowing any better. Maybe a Jetblue guy who doesn't read message boards doesn't know any better, either, when he see's an EMB190 job as a good move for his career.

I'm as pro-union, pro-pilot, and pro-career, as they come. I just think the BS is getting a little thick in here.

I draw the line at using the jumpseat as a way to push a personal vendetta. As long as they are on the list, all are welcome on my jumpseat.

The word "scab" has a meaning amongst pilots that shouldn't be messed with.
 
DE727, I agree with you. I think calling someone who is not a strikebreaker a scab is like calling a woman who dresses provocatively a •. Some don't agree, but that's why we come here: To discourse intelligently about these things in the hopes of seeing things through someone elses eyes, as well as having someone see things through ours.
 
DE727UPS said:
Naw, I'm not buying it. You did the Gulfstream thing and explain it away as not knowing any better. Maybe a Jetblue guy who doesn't read message boards doesn't know any better, either, when he see's an EMB190 job as a good move for his career.
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You don't have to read message boards to know that JetBlue is a non-union carrier in a unionized industry. JetBlue isn't a place you can go at the beginning of your career. By the time you get an interview at JetBlue, you've been in this business for years and know all about unions, pay scales, work rules, etc...

I draw the line at using the jumpseat as a way to push a personal vendetta. As long as they are on the list, all are welcome on my jumpseat.
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Does that include the "true" SCABs that actually crossed a picket line? If their carrier is on the approved jumpseat list, will you give even a true SCAB a ride? I sure hope not.
 
A couple of observations for thought...(not flame)

1) Everyone talks up SWA big time. They are not officially union correct? They enjoy some ALPA benefits but are still in-house. Please correct me if I am wrong...I used to be anti-SWA but I am slowly coming around. I used to apply the same logic that Velo and PCL_128 do to the 'Axis of Evil' to SWA. In my mind they cheapened the industry, brought down 737 pay rates and now because everyone else is below them, they are put on a pedestal. Didn't they undercut the big boys back in the day? How long did it take for them to unionize?

2) A lot of startups in the business world barely pay their employees for the first 6-12 months. They offer incentives such as stock options and bonuses if the company ends up successful. There are obviously no guarantees in business so companies have to start out meager. What if the likes of JBlue, Virgin and SkyBus unionize later on, become successful and pay solid rates because said companies offer a superior (relative) service?

I don't have the time tonight, but I would like to research when and how each of United, DL, Pan Am, TWA, USAir, etc started up and how they were received by their peers in the industry at the time.

Again, not trying to flame but adding some food for thought here :) And yes, I realize I currently work for a non-union airline (trying to remedy that thank you very much), I obviously have no beef with unions - just trying to look at startup airlines in a different perspective.
 
bike21 said:
A couple of observations for thought...(not flame)

1) Everyone talks up SWA big time. They are not officially union correct?
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The pilots at SWA do have an official union that is recognized by the NMB. Although they aren't ALPA, they do have a services agreement with ALPA, so SWAPA works frequently with the staff in Herndon on various things, including negotiations. ALPA trains the negotiating committee for SWAPA, for example. Actually having them as ALPA members would be much better of course (the same here at AirTran), but they are union members that are working to improve the profession.

I don't have the time tonight, but I would like to research when and how each of United, DL, Pan Am, TWA, USAir, etc started up and how they were received by their peers in the industry at the time.
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Pick up a copy of Flying the Line, Volume 1. It goes over the entire history of how the legacy carrier pilots created and joined ALPA very early in the game. It's a great read, and should be required reading of every new pilot. Also recommend Volume II, which discusses the CAL and EAL strikes, among other things closer to present day.
 
PCL_128 said:
The pilots at SWA do have an official union that is recognized by the NMB. Although they aren't ALPA, they do have a services agreement with ALPA, so SWAPA works frequently with the staff in Herndon on various things, including negotiations. ALPA trains the negotiating committee for SWAPA, for example. Actually having them as ALPA members would be much better of course (the same here at AirTran), but they are union members that are working to improve the profession.
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Good info, thanks!

Pick up a copy of Flying the Line, Volume 1. It goes over the entire history of how the legacy carrier pilots created and joined ALPA very early in the game. It's a great read, and should be required reading of every new pilot. Also recommend Volume II, which discusses the CAL and EAL strikes, among other things closer to present day.
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Got'em both actually just need to read'em :) (I am actually on the SkyWest ALPA OC)

For the first time in about 2 months I can get back to reading things that don't concern SOP or systems knowledge :)
 
Agreed. Just because a pilot group has an in-house union (SWAPA, FPA, NPA) doesn't make them less than unionized than ALPA. And all Unions help raise the bar. Everyone is currently pointing to SWAPA because they have the highest narrowbody pay scale. They are the target everyone is working towards. SWAPA is helping to raise the bar just as much as jetBlue, Virgin and Skybus are lowering it.
 
PCL_128 said:
The situation is somewhat different for you guys at NJA. Since you're not technically an airline, ALPA wouldn't really be the proper fit, either. What you guys did in creating your own local was the smart move for your operation, and it's turned out great. I still hate the IBT at the National level, but your local guys are top notch.
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We gained a great deal of help from the National IBT. In my opinion, ALPA has turned its back on this industry and is more corrupt than the IBT. If your MEC has their act together the National will help, but they aren't going to pony up if you aren't willing to help yourself. As you referenced above. I have seen the difference it makes from a local standpoint. Same pilot group, same National IBT. When we changed our elected officials.....the world changed overnight (and so did the local # shortly thereafter).

Every retired/furlough 121 pilot I have spoken to (and read on our board) is glad to be away from ALPA and wants nothing further to do with them. I would surely not welcome them.
 
NJA_Capt said:
If your MEC has their act together the National will help, but they aren't going to pony up if you aren't willing to help yourself.
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In my experience, albeit a short one of only 3 years, this is true of ALPA as well. At least that's the way it appears at XJT. Good local leadership equals a good contract and a pretty unified pilot group. Perhaps it takes good local leadership to effectively use the resources that the national union provides? I really don't know the answer, but I appreciate the hard work of my fellow XJT ALPA volunteers.
 
WildCougar said:
Who else besides me wants details -- raise your hands!! :p :D
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Don't you remember last week? You were pretty drunk but when you told me that I reminded you of a cross between George Clooney and John Holmes, I thought you were serious. I guess it turns out I was just another piece of tenderloin to you. :rolleyes:
 
calcapt said:
Don't you remember last week? You were pretty drunk but when you told me that I reminded you of a cross between George Clooney and John Holmes, I thought you were serious. I guess it turns out I was just another piece of tenderloin to you. :rolleyes:
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Aren't ALL your women drunk? :p Gee, I must have been since I detest George Clooney.... And yes, you were just another piece of meat to me. Cougars are carnivores, after all....:D
 
Is it just me, or is Calcapt hot?

And does that make me gay?

And at least she didn't say you reminded her of Ron Jeremy.
 
WildCougar said:
Aren't ALL your women drunk? :p Gee, I must have been since I detest George Clooney.... And yes, you were just another piece of meat to me. Cougars are carnivores, after all....:D
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Calcapt is licking his wounds that are quite deep. Damn, you cougars are vicious. More licking..........more licking........I will get to my crushed ego next...more licking...
 
Ian J said:
Is it just me, or is Calcapt hot?

And does that make me gay?

And at least she didn't say you reminded her of Ron Jeremy.
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I think it's just you!;) Don't know if that makes you gay or not--better ask Max..:D
Ewww, Ron Jeremy? I could feign ignorance and act like I don't know who he OR John Holmes are, but.....:crazy:
He is the most disgusting-looking creature God ever put on this earth. He's enough to make me turn lesbian. (not that there's anything wrong with that....):)
 
Ian J said:
Is it just me, or is Calcapt hot?

And does that make me gay?

And at least she didn't say you reminded her of Ron Jeremy.
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I saw Ron Jeremy in the airport terminal a couple years ago and was going to shake his hand but thought better of it for several obvious reasons. How do you recognize Ron Jeremy without everyone else around knowing how you know him? Of course if they too recognize him.....well, you get the idea. I wonder how many women he has "entertained" over the years?

Gay is a word that has a multifaceted and complex meaning. Perhaps we are all a little gay in some form or fashion. I, for example, am Gay when girls allow me to see their boobs because they know I am no threat. Once the boobs come out though, I struggle to maintain my gayness.

Anyone want to start talking about Skybus again?
 
WildCougar said:
OK guys, party's over....The great and powerful Wizard of (errr--Calcapt) has spoken!!!! :D
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As we speak, I am behind a big curtain pulling levers and pushing buttons (The Wizard of OZ for you youngsters). I am not really a wizard as many think. :crazy:
 
Short answer is, I don't know.

But, what I think is going on are these four points:

Skybus is Columbus based, as is Airnet.

Skybus is all out and backs now, which is good for the family.

Skybus pays more than Airnet. And those stock options might be worth something someday.

The majors aren't picking up Airnet pilots like they used to.

And that's just my guess from a few overheard conversations - I really don't know first hand.
 
NJA_Capt said:
We gained a great deal of help from the National IBT. In my opinion, ALPA has turned its back on this industry and is more corrupt than the IBT. If your MEC has their act together the National will help, but they aren't going to pony up if you aren't willing to help yourself. As you referenced above. I have seen the difference it makes from a local standpoint. Same pilot group, same National IBT. When we changed our elected officials.....the world changed overnight (and so did the local # shortly thereafter).

Every retired/furlough 121 pilot I have spoken to (and read on our board) is glad to be away from ALPA and wants nothing further to do with them. I would surely not welcome them.
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I've got a totally different opinion of ALPA at my carrier. They're helping us out tons. $2 million towards strike prepardness as well as training for the local guys that will be organizing the picketing events and possible strikes is hardly turning their backs on us. We're benefiting from the experience of those that have "been there, done that."

IMO, weak local leadership doesn't know when to ask National for help. When the help doesn't come, people assume that ALPA has abandoned them. That's like US Air blaming ALPA national for all of their trouble when they should be focusing on their MEC and their "no retreat, no surrender" policy.
 
Ian J said:
Short answer is, I don't know.

But, what I think is going on are these four points:

Skybus is Columbus based, as is Airnet.

Skybus is all out and backs now, which is good for the family.

Skybus pays more than Airnet. And those stock options might be worth something someday.

The majors aren't picking up Airnet pilots like they used to.

And that's just my guess from a few overheard conversations - I really don't know first hand.
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I guess those are valid reasons to some. A short sided view in my opinion but, it is their decision. It will be sad when these guys are looking for work in the future and must confess their Skybus sins. It can be a brutal industry for those types. Thanks for the insight...
 
kellwolf said:
IMO, weak local leadership doesn't know when to ask National for help. When the help doesn't come, people assume that ALPA has abandoned them. That's like US Air blaming ALPA national for all of their trouble when they should be focusing on their MEC and their "no retreat, no surrender" policy.
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Bingo! ALPA has all of the resources that you could ever need, but they aren't going to force-feed them to you. It starts with the local leadership, but it doesn't end there. You need both good local leaders, and a good National structure.
 
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