skybus

You are blaming the wrong group of people. The IBT is only the backer. The people responsible for the bad contracts are the pilot groups themselves.

I'm not just referring to the contracts. I'm talking about the organization in general. The IBT is a corrupt organization that turned their backs on the rest of labor movement and stiffed us for the millions of dues that they still owe to this day.

Who wrote the language? The Union negotiating team.
Who is the UNT? Pilots
Who elected the MEC? The pilots
Who gives the MEC the leverage to secure a contract? The pilots

If the pilots elect a good EB/MEC, and that group can keep the pilots unified, then you earn a decent contract.

If you don't have a good MEC/EB and the pilots are not unified, you get a substandard contract.

The local leadership is only part of the equation. The resources that are available to them are also a big part of the equation. The IBT doesn't have the resources and experience to negotiate for air line pilots that ALPA does. The local pilots do their best, and some are pretty successful, but there's no comparison to having the backing from ALPA National.

The situation is somewhat different for you guys at NJA. Since you're not technically an airline, ALPA wouldn't really be the proper fit, either. What you guys did in creating your own local was the smart move for your operation, and it's turned out great. I still hate the IBT at the National level, but your local guys are top notch.
 
I won't get into an argument about someone being able to choose where they work. I fully respect the fact that we are independent thinkers and make decisions based on many things. The thing that must be understood is that as in life, those decisions that are made come with a set of conditions. We have spent considerable amounts of time on this very forum talking about the consequences of working for companies like Skybus, Virgin America and others that share the same philosophy toward their employees. This also isn't an issue about unionism despite some that try to make it so. In fact, this subject really transcends unionism.

Being an airline pilot has always been a noble and special profession. You were really someone if you had the fortune to fly airplanes for a living 20 or 30 years ago. The general public looked up to you in ways that were almost, well Godlike. It might have been misguided adulation but it was seen and perceived as a very special occupation nonetheless. As such, major airline pilots were well compensated and enjoyed the perks of living "the life." Airlines knew they had to pay for the experience their crew members brought to work every day.

The advent of men like Frank Lorenzo, Carl Icahn and others brought about a very destructive cycle that still exists in many places. That is, unscrupulous men who see running an airline as nothing more than a way to put money in their own pockets, largely on the backs of labor. We saw this happen with our very own eyes, how these crooks raped and pillaged companies. Proud airlines like TWA, Eastern and many others were sent to slaughter by a very few evil men. When up and coming executives and managers saw how much money could be made by having your hands literally in the airline till, it was like the California Gold Rush to cash in. We are all familiar with the names of individuals who in the past 20 years have jumped on this bandwagon and still try to this day to destroy fundamentally good companies for their own selfish desires.

Ultimately the only ones we can count on to fight back this movement is each other. Unions have been formed to organize these efforts, but frankly ALPA, APA and SWAPA are basically just a group of "us" willing to fight the fight. Are unions perfect? No! Are all non-union pilot groups bad? Of course not!


It is my opinion that this profession of ours is literally hanging on the edge of a very deep and dangerous precipice. If some of the lost benefits are ever restored, It will be because of us, not a generous management team that wants to see us thrive and prosper. That is why it is so important to clearly understand what it means by going to places like Skybus, Virgin America and others like them, literally handing them the tools, in the form of substandard wages and benefits, to continue to destroy our profession. What possible good to our profession does somebody think they are contributing when they knock on Skybus' door and say please hire me at a fraction of what I am worth? In my opinion, it borders on treasonous behavior. How could a person doing that have any expectation that they would be greeted with anything other than disdain by other pilots in the industry? Jeez guys, is it really that difficult of a concept to digest? Pilot positions at respectable companies go unfilled in today's pilot marketplace. The argument of "it was my only option", or "I need to feed my family" falls way short here.

Any industry has entry level positions and the airline industry is no exception. It is generally expected that as a young buck, you will get hired at a Part 135 or regional carrier and essentially work your way through the system. Is it right that Gulfstream and some of the lower paying companies only pay $1000 to $1500 per month? I don't know the answer to that except that if I were a businessman and hung a help wanted sign out front saying that I needed workers for $6 per hour, and my business was flooded with folks wanting the job, I guess I would have to believe that $6 per hour was enough. On the other hand, If I had no one apply, I would be forced into paying more until I could hire the help I needed.

When a young CFI has the opportunity to move up from a Cessna or Piper into a multi million dollar jet, their eyes light up and they see their dream materializing before their eyes. After all, even though they are not making a killing in the pay department, they are gaining valuable experience that will serve them well in the future so this justifies the low starting salary to most. FOs become captains and the captains they replace move on the legacy carriers or other attractive higher paying jobs. Pardon my analogy, but it is a cycle much like Simba experiences in Disney's The Lion King. Simba learned from his father and all the other animals in his ficticious kingdom, eventually laying claim to his title King. Perhaps not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea. Many on this site will become captains at major airlines. The work and courage by all of us today will largely determine what their life will be as a captain in ten years from now.

9/11 was a horrific day for all of us. Many lost their lives and many more lost jobs, pensions, homes and relationships over the economic fallout it created. We all have paid dearly for making it possible for our employers to survive. Well, now they have survived, even getting the balance sheet cleaned up thanks to generous bankruptcy courts. It is now up to every one of us to step up to the plate and tell management that substandard is no longer good enough. We have no choice but to take a stand or becoming an airline pilot will simply not be an option due to the high costs and sacrifices required to get there.

Those among us who are knocking on the wrong doors in looking for work are unfortunately making the job of reclaiming our proud and noble profession very difficult. Be proud of who and what you have become, and don't give your skill and judgment away to an unworthy individual or corporation - and you know who they are. Or if you do, be prepared to exist in a world of non-respect from your fellow pilots. Come on guys, you are way better than that! Let's not get lost talking about unions, scabs and other issues that deserve threads of their own. This is about self respect and raising the bar for all that follow us. If we don't SAY NO to those who choose to destroy us, the fault of killing a wonderful profession will lay squarely at our own feet.
 
They're bottom-feeder, nonunion, scumbag operations. They don't deserve the respect of true professionals, and they should be treated as the pseudo-SCABs that they are.

No they're startups and they've only been around a few months. I'm new to airlines but I would really doubt in reality you'd find a place that is unionized and has a top notch contract as soon as operations start. I'm pretty sure SW wasn't the place that is is now for example back when they started or evena few years ago, were they called whatever scabs you want to call it?? Just an example, not saying SB will become the next SW.
 
Oh puleeze! It takes consistent dumbi####tery to get me to ban you. Keep hope alive i say!
 
Oh puleeze! It takes consistent dumbi####tery to get me to ban you. Keep hope alive i say!

Oh you mean, like restarting the US/DL merger debate? :yar:

Uh, sorry to hijack the thread. Let's get back on track....Skybus is a joke of an airline.
 
I'm new to airlines but I would really doubt in reality you'd find a place that is unionized and has a top notch contract as soon as operations start. I'm pretty sure SW wasn't the place that is is now for example back when they started or evena few years ago, were they called whatever scabs you want to call it?? Just an example, not saying SB will become the next SW.

You can make excuses for these guys all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that they're undercutting the rest of us and contributing to the destruction of this once proud profession. If they unionize someday and start contributing towards bettering this profession, then they'll get respect. Until then, they're no better than SCABs and they deserve no professional respect or courtesies. As far as I'm concerned, they're sticking a knife in my back every day they show up to work.
 
I won't get into an argument about someone being able to choose where they work. I fully respect the fact that we are independent thinkers and make decisions based on many things. The thing that must be understood is that as in life, those decisions that are made come with a set of conditions. We have spent considerable amounts of time on this very forum talking about the consequences of working for companies like Skybus, Virgin America and others that share the same philosophy toward their employees. This also isn't an issue about unionism despite some that try to make it so. In fact, this subject really transcends unionism.

Being an airline pilot has always been a noble and special profession. You were really someone if you had the fortune to fly airplanes for a living 20 or 30 years ago. The general public looked up to you in ways that were almost, well Godlike. It might have been misguided adulation but it was seen and perceived as a very special occupation nonetheless. As such, major airline pilots were well compensated and enjoyed the perks of living "the life." Airlines knew they had to pay for the experience their crew members brought to work every day.

The advent of men like Frank Lorenzo, Carl Icahn and others brought about a very destructive cycle that still exists in many places. That is, unscrupulous men who see running an airline as nothing more than a way to put money in their own pockets, largely on the backs of labor. We saw this happen with our very own eyes, how these crooks raped and pillaged companies. Proud airlines like TWA, Eastern and many others were sent to slaughter by a very few evil men. When up and coming executives and managers saw how much money could be made by having your hands literally in the airline till, it was like the California Gold Rush to cash in. We are all familiar with the names of individuals who in the past 20 years have jumped on this bandwagon and still try to this day to destroy fundamentally good companies for their own selfish desires.

Ultimately the only ones we can count on to fight back this movement is each other. Unions have been formed to organize these efforts, but frankly ALPA, APA and SWAPA are basically just a group of "us" willing to fight the fight. Are unions perfect? No! Are all non-union pilot groups bad? Of course not!


It is my opinion that this profession of ours is literally hanging on the edge of a very deep and dangerous precipice. If some of the lost benefits are ever restored, It will be because of us, not a generous management team that wants to see us thrive and prosper. That is why it is so important to clearly understand what it means by going to places like Skybus, Virgin America and others like them, literally handing them the tools, in the form of substandard wages and benefits, to continue to destroy our profession. What possible good to our profession does somebody think they are contributing when they knock on Skybus' door and say please hire me at a fraction of what I am worth? In my opinion, it borders on treasonous behavior. How could a person doing that have any expectation that they would be greeted with anything other than disdain by other pilots in the industry? Jeez guys, is it really that difficult of a concept to digest? Pilot positions at respectable companies go unfilled in today's pilot marketplace. The argument of "it was my only option", or "I need to feed my family" falls way short here.

Any industry has entry level positions and the airline industry is no exception. It is generally expected that as a young buck, you will get hired at a Part 135 or regional carrier and essentially work your way through the system. Is it right that Gulfstream and some of the lower paying companies only pay $1000 to $1500 per month? I don't know the answer to that except that if I were a businessman and hung a help wanted sign out front saying that I needed workers for $6 per hour, and my business was flooded with folks wanting the job, I guess I would have to believe that $6 per hour was enough. On the other hand, If I had no one apply, I would be forced into paying more until I could hire the help I needed.

When a young CFI has the opportunity to move up from a Cessna or Piper into a multi million dollar jet, their eyes light up and they see their dream materializing before their eyes. After all, even though they are not making a killing in the pay department, they are gaining valuable experience that will serve them well in the future so this justifies the low starting salary to most. FOs become captains and the captains they replace move on the legacy carriers or other attractive higher paying jobs. Pardon my analogy, but it is a cycle much like Simba experiences in Disney's The Lion King. Simba learned from his father and all the other animals in his ficticious kingdom, eventually laying claim to his title King. Perhaps not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea. Many on this site will become captains at major airlines. The work and courage by all of us today will largely determine what their life will be as a captain in ten years from now.

9/11 was a horrific day for all of us. Many lost their lives and many more lost jobs, pensions, homes and relationships over the economic fallout it created. We all have paid dearly for making it possible for our employers to survive. Well, now they have survived, even getting the balance sheet cleaned up thanks to generous bankruptcy courts. It is now up to every one of us to step up to the plate and tell management that substandard is no longer good enough. We have no choice but to take a stand or becoming an airline pilot will simply not be an option due to the high costs and sacrifices required to get there.

Those among us who are knocking on the wrong doors in looking for work are unfortunately making the job of reclaiming our proud and noble profession very difficult. Be proud of who and what you have become, and don't give your skill and judgment away to an unworthy individual or corporation - and you know who they are. Or if you do, be prepared to exist in a world of non-respect from your fellow pilots. Come on guys, you are way better than that! Let's not get lost talking about unions, scabs and other issues that deserve threads of their own. This is about self respect and raising the bar for all that follow us. If we don't SAY NO to those who choose to destroy us, the fault of killing a wonderful profession will lay squarely at our own feet.


I wanted to quote this so people get to read it again farther down the thread line.

Great post CC!!! You truly are a class act! :)
 
Calcapt, excellent post. Agree 100%.

On comparing SWA as a startup to SB....apples to oranges. SWA started up during regulation, so it was a TOTALLY different time and economic environment then. You had to prove that routes were needed and the government regulated the fares. Skybus couldn't set $10 fares back then to undercut the big boys. They would've had to compete on service and quality, something I highly doubt they're gonna be able to do. They're geared to compete on price only.

For more info on the Southwest inception and history, check out the book "Nuts!" You'll find their startup was nothing like starting Skybus.
 
You guys said it first, but "I've got to take care of my family." is the #1 excuse SCABS use when crossing picket lines.

That's why I refer to Skybus, Virgin and jetBlue as "protoscab" outfits. They don't worry about stabbing Union guys in the back, why would they hesitate to cross our picket lines.

Please don't give jumpseat rides to protoscabs.

What would it take for Virgin and jetBlue to come out of the "protoscab" category?

Industry leading pay and contract? Or once you're in, you're in type of thing?

Not flamebaiting, just wondering.
 
What would it take for Virgin and jetBlue to come out of the "protoscab" category?

Industry leading pay and contract? Or once you're in, you're in type of thing?

Well, I can see I don't need to even comment on this since CalCapt and PCL have done all the heavy lifting.

So, I'll address this one. Get a union. Then you're helping raise the bar for us all instead of lowering it. Non-Union guys have no recourse when management chooses to "adjust" pay rates and working conditions except to quit.

Sure, first contracts can be tough. And they're usually substandard, but eventually, the level is raised by ALL OF US jacking the house one corner at a time.

Enter the protoscabs. They get SJS and will do or suffer anything for that type rating. And, in the long run it affects all of us. You don't think that UAL and USAir's current narrowbody rates could have been imposed as a result of jetBlue's intial success do you? Ever wonder why they are EXACTLY the same?

Now here comes Virgin at $95 an hour and Skybus at $65 an hour. The downward spiral is accelerating and we are getting way to close to the "event horizon" where it will be unrecoverable.
 
Well, I can see I don't need to even comment on this since CalCapt and PCL have done all the heavy lifting.

So, I'll address this one. Get a union. Then you're helping raise the bar for us all instead of lowering it. Non-Union guys have no recourse when management chooses to "adjust" pay rates and working conditions except to quit.

Sure, first contracts can be tough. And they're usually substandard, but eventually, the level is raised by ALL OF US jacking the house one corner at a time.

Enter the protoscabs. They get SJS and will do or suffer anything for that type rating. And, in the long run it affects all of us. You don't think that UAL and USAir's current narrowbody rates could have been imposed as a result of jetBlue's intial success do you? Ever wonder why they are EXACTLY the same?

Now here comes Virgin at $95 an hour and Skybus at $65 an hour. The downward spiral is accelerating and we are getting way to close to the "event horizon" where it will be unrecoverable.

Makes perfect sense.
 
Gang: Please stop this 'protoscab' nonsense. For a start, the prefix 'proto-' means 'the ancestor of'. There are no ancestors of scabs working at Skybus. Second, Skybus pilots have not crossed a picket line, and therefore are not remotely in the same class as scabs, regardless of what wage the bottom-feeding fools have chosen to • themselves for.

I for one hold the term 'scab' to be the absolute lowest insult a person can recieve, reserved for the absolute pond scum of people who truly earn the title. Once we start cheapening that by trying to apply it to situations and people that it was not meant for, we start down a slippery slope that I don't even want to contemplate. Skypus (spelling intentional) Pilots are deplorable for many reasons, but being a scab is not yet one of them. Please, for everyone's sake, keep a scab a scab, and at the bottom where they belong.
 
You use your definition, Jim, I'll use mine. Skybus, Virgin and jetBlue pilots have demonstrated that they have the mentality to cross YOUR picket line. Protoscab works fine for me. Can't help it if the U.S. education system has turned out a bunch of illiterates who don't know what the prefix "proto" means.

As long as they voluntarily work at places that undercut Union pilots, they deserve virturally the same scorn as the ultimate undercutters...SCABS.
 
Gang: Please stop this 'protoscab' nonsense. For a start, the prefix 'proto-' means 'the ancestor of'. There are no ancestors of scabs working at Skybus. Second, Skybus pilots have not crossed a picket line, and therefore are not remotely in the same class as scabs, regardless of what wage the bottom-feeding fools have chosen to • themselves for.

I for one hold the term 'scab' to be the absolute lowest insult a person can recieve, reserved for the absolute pond scum of people who truly earn the title. Once we start cheapening that by trying to apply it to situations and people that it was not meant for, we start down a slippery slope that I don't even want to contemplate. Skypus (spelling intentional) Pilots are deplorable for many reasons, but being a scab is not yet one of them. Please, for everyone's sake, keep a scab a scab, and at the bottom where they belong.

Would the term 'pseudo-scab' work better for you, Jim? Not entirely scabish.....yet, well on it's way by having many scabish tendencies!
 
Would the term 'pseudo-scab' work better for you, Jim? Not entirely scabish.....yet, well on it's way by having many scabish tendencies!

That's why I use that term. For some reason, many people falsely believe that the only definition of SCAB is "someone who crossed a picket line." Far be it for someone to pick up a friggin' dictionary. :rolleyes: But, to make it easier for our friends who don't know how to use a dictionary, I use the term "pseudo-SCAB." As far as I'm concerned, they're no different than SCABs, but I'll use the different term to appease the ignorant.
 
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