"Skipping" the Regionals
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Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
Re: One airline\'s view
No it wasn't answered. The question was which of the two was more desirable. The applicant in question had both experience categories.
Doug I'm pretty shocked at this recruiter's analysis. I hope this was just used to determine possibility of interview and not actual hiring. The Interview is definitely 90% of the hiring process, with the other 10% being background check stuff.
Once someone has 2500 hrs I don't care where they flew. My training department will teach them the way we fly.
Also - I supposed you noticed the typo or misstatement - 1300 hrs single engine jet, all multi turbine ????
No it wasn't answered. The question was which of the two was more desirable. The applicant in question had both experience categories.
Doug I'm pretty shocked at this recruiter's analysis. I hope this was just used to determine possibility of interview and not actual hiring. The Interview is definitely 90% of the hiring process, with the other 10% being background check stuff.
Once someone has 2500 hrs I don't care where they flew. My training department will teach them the way we fly.
Also - I supposed you noticed the typo or misstatement - 1300 hrs single engine jet, all multi turbine ????
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Re: One airline\'s view
[ QUOTE ]
Also - I supposed you noticed the typo or misstatement - 1300 hrs single engine jet, all multi turbine ????
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Military guys never fly pistons....
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Also - I supposed you noticed the typo or misstatement - 1300 hrs single engine jet, all multi turbine ????
[/ QUOTE ]
Military guys never fly pistons....
aloft
New Member
Re: One airline\'s view
Maybe, but it was this line that tipped me off he's living in la-la land:
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with at least 30% a given of solid night, no moon flying.
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Um, exactly how many nights a year is there no moon? I doubt there's a pilot alive whose total time includes greater that 10% "solid night, no moon flying".
Sorry, but I'm tired of the stereotypes. Not all military pilots are God's gift to aviation; anyone read Tony Kern's Darker Shades of Blue? Plenty of unknown quantities documented in that book, all people who "excelled" in college (and by "excelled", I mean a GPA of >2.0), got thru UPT, passed fitness reports, goal oriented, etc.
That last part, goal orientation, cracks me up in particular. As if ANY of the guys here who've made it to the 121 world on their own or are slaving away in abject poverty as CFIs or freight dogs in pursuit of an airline job are any less "goal oriented".
Maybe, but it was this line that tipped me off he's living in la-la land:
[ QUOTE ]
with at least 30% a given of solid night, no moon flying.
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, exactly how many nights a year is there no moon? I doubt there's a pilot alive whose total time includes greater that 10% "solid night, no moon flying".
Sorry, but I'm tired of the stereotypes. Not all military pilots are God's gift to aviation; anyone read Tony Kern's Darker Shades of Blue? Plenty of unknown quantities documented in that book, all people who "excelled" in college (and by "excelled", I mean a GPA of >2.0), got thru UPT, passed fitness reports, goal oriented, etc.
That last part, goal orientation, cracks me up in particular. As if ANY of the guys here who've made it to the 121 world on their own or are slaving away in abject poverty as CFIs or freight dogs in pursuit of an airline job are any less "goal oriented".
jonnyb
Well-Known Member
Re: One airline\'s view
I have to agree with some of Aloft's points. I've know many military pilots (fighter and transport) who were absolutely fantastic individuals. I've also know some real knuckelheads who didn't know there ass from a hole in the ground if they were challenged to think on their feet. It varies in any arena. Greats and not so greats in every field. I agree that military bias is lame and doesn't aid in selecting the best pilot applicants at all. The evaluators are the ones who should be carefully selected and monitored. It takes a special person with certain talents and characteristics to be an excellent evaluator.
I have to agree with some of Aloft's points. I've know many military pilots (fighter and transport) who were absolutely fantastic individuals. I've also know some real knuckelheads who didn't know there ass from a hole in the ground if they were challenged to think on their feet. It varies in any arena. Greats and not so greats in every field. I agree that military bias is lame and doesn't aid in selecting the best pilot applicants at all. The evaluators are the ones who should be carefully selected and monitored. It takes a special person with certain talents and characteristics to be an excellent evaluator.
eeg
New Member
Re: One airline\'s view
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I agree that military bias is lame and doesn't aid in selecting the best pilot applicants at all.
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Specially now that the military is in need of pilots and will take literally any warm body that can get a GT score above 105, and pass the FAST.
But what can we do...
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I agree that military bias is lame and doesn't aid in selecting the best pilot applicants at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Specially now that the military is in need of pilots and will take literally any warm body that can get a GT score above 105, and pass the FAST.
But what can we do...
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Aloft
"he's living in la-la land"
Whether you think he's in la-la land or not is irrevelent. He's a guy who's is/has/will be involved with pilot hiring at the "very coveted job" level. He's da man who makes the rules....not you.
You have to conform to this business...it doesn't conform to you.
"he's living in la-la land"
Whether you think he's in la-la land or not is irrevelent. He's a guy who's is/has/will be involved with pilot hiring at the "very coveted job" level. He's da man who makes the rules....not you.
You have to conform to this business...it doesn't conform to you.
Re: One airline\'s view
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but I'm tired of the stereotypes. Not all military pilots are God's gift to aviation; anyone read Tony Kern's Darker Shades of Blue? Plenty of unknown quantities documented in that book, all people who "excelled" in college (and by "excelled", I mean a GPA of >2.0), got thru UPT, passed fitness reports, goal oriented, etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd have to slightly disagree. While military pilots (or any pilots for that matter) aren't God's gift to aviation, I guarantee it takes more ability to fly military than it does civilian, especially tactical military. Some of the crap even I've done is highly tasking and out of the ordinary, something I'd challenge many pilots' ability to do. I'd love to take many pilots on night low-level nav through mountainous terrain, and see where their SA level is. I doubt many people could do that, much less Navy/Marine carrier ops at night and in the WX, blue-water with no divert. And that's just the flying aspect of it, let's not get into the weapons delivery, threat knowlege, tactics knowlege both friendly and enemy, and getting shot at......just to name a few.
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but I'm tired of the stereotypes. Not all military pilots are God's gift to aviation; anyone read Tony Kern's Darker Shades of Blue? Plenty of unknown quantities documented in that book, all people who "excelled" in college (and by "excelled", I mean a GPA of >2.0), got thru UPT, passed fitness reports, goal oriented, etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd have to slightly disagree. While military pilots (or any pilots for that matter) aren't God's gift to aviation, I guarantee it takes more ability to fly military than it does civilian, especially tactical military. Some of the crap even I've done is highly tasking and out of the ordinary, something I'd challenge many pilots' ability to do. I'd love to take many pilots on night low-level nav through mountainous terrain, and see where their SA level is. I doubt many people could do that, much less Navy/Marine carrier ops at night and in the WX, blue-water with no divert. And that's just the flying aspect of it, let's not get into the weapons delivery, threat knowlege, tactics knowlege both friendly and enemy, and getting shot at......just to name a few.
Re: One airline\'s view
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much less Navy/Marine carrier ops at night and in the WX, blue-water with no divert
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While I never landed on a carrier I can testify to the craziness. I spent many hours in "Vultures Row" watching the F14's trying to catch the wire. It is definetly a sight to see and admire. The thing I remember more is watching the COD's launch from teh catapult and drop slightly when leaving the flight deck. Just a little different than the F14's leaping into the air.
[ QUOTE ]
much less Navy/Marine carrier ops at night and in the WX, blue-water with no divert
[/ QUOTE ]
While I never landed on a carrier I can testify to the craziness. I spent many hours in "Vultures Row" watching the F14's trying to catch the wire. It is definetly a sight to see and admire. The thing I remember more is watching the COD's launch from teh catapult and drop slightly when leaving the flight deck. Just a little different than the F14's leaping into the air.
RPM
Well-Known Member
Re: One airline\'s view
[ QUOTE ]
I'd have to slightly disagree. While military pilots (or any pilots for that matter) aren't God's gift to aviation, I guarantee it takes more ability to fly military than it does civilian, especially tactical military. Some of the crap even I've done is highly tasking and out of the ordinary, something I'd challenge many pilots' ability to do. I'd love to take many pilots on night low-level nav through mountainous terrain, and see where their SA level is. I doubt many people could do that , much less Navy/Marine carrier ops at night and in the WX, blue-water with no divert. And that's just the flying aspect of it, let's not get into the weapons delivery, threat knowlege, tactics knowlege both friendly and enemy, and getting shot at......just to name a few.
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I don't see why I couldn't do that type of flying if I had the same training you've had.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd have to slightly disagree. While military pilots (or any pilots for that matter) aren't God's gift to aviation, I guarantee it takes more ability to fly military than it does civilian, especially tactical military. Some of the crap even I've done is highly tasking and out of the ordinary, something I'd challenge many pilots' ability to do. I'd love to take many pilots on night low-level nav through mountainous terrain, and see where their SA level is. I doubt many people could do that , much less Navy/Marine carrier ops at night and in the WX, blue-water with no divert. And that's just the flying aspect of it, let's not get into the weapons delivery, threat knowlege, tactics knowlege both friendly and enemy, and getting shot at......just to name a few.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see why I couldn't do that type of flying if I had the same training you've had.
Re: One airline\'s view
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd have to slightly disagree. While military pilots (or any pilots for that matter) aren't God's gift to aviation, I guarantee it takes more ability to fly military than it does civilian, especially tactical military. Some of the crap even I've done is highly tasking and out of the ordinary, something I'd challenge many pilots' ability to do. I'd love to take many pilots on night low-level nav through mountainous terrain, and see where their SA level is. I doubt many people could do that , much less Navy/Marine carrier ops at night and in the WX, blue-water with no divert. And that's just the flying aspect of it, let's not get into the weapons delivery, threat knowlege, tactics knowlege both friendly and enemy, and getting shot at......just to name a few.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see why I couldn't do that type of flying if I had the same training you've had.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know you're being sarcastic, but that's an interesting point, so let me address it. Even with the training, there's many people that wash out of military flight training, yet would probably have no trouble flying civilian. In fact, when I went through training, I knew of 1 guy that was a regional pilot, 3 guys that were CFI/Is, and one guy that was a freight dog.....all with a respectable number of hours, and all who washed out on the tactical portion of flight training. Everything from not being able to think/have SA at 8-9 miles a minute, to being unable to handle high performance maneuvers, to problems with formation flying, to not being able to employ weapons correctly, etc, etc.
So in short, even with the same training, I'm not sure anyone and everyone can "do it" until they've tried it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd have to slightly disagree. While military pilots (or any pilots for that matter) aren't God's gift to aviation, I guarantee it takes more ability to fly military than it does civilian, especially tactical military. Some of the crap even I've done is highly tasking and out of the ordinary, something I'd challenge many pilots' ability to do. I'd love to take many pilots on night low-level nav through mountainous terrain, and see where their SA level is. I doubt many people could do that , much less Navy/Marine carrier ops at night and in the WX, blue-water with no divert. And that's just the flying aspect of it, let's not get into the weapons delivery, threat knowlege, tactics knowlege both friendly and enemy, and getting shot at......just to name a few.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see why I couldn't do that type of flying if I had the same training you've had.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know you're being sarcastic, but that's an interesting point, so let me address it. Even with the training, there's many people that wash out of military flight training, yet would probably have no trouble flying civilian. In fact, when I went through training, I knew of 1 guy that was a regional pilot, 3 guys that were CFI/Is, and one guy that was a freight dog.....all with a respectable number of hours, and all who washed out on the tactical portion of flight training. Everything from not being able to think/have SA at 8-9 miles a minute, to being unable to handle high performance maneuvers, to problems with formation flying, to not being able to employ weapons correctly, etc, etc.
So in short, even with the same training, I'm not sure anyone and everyone can "do it" until they've tried it.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
Re: One airline\'s view
[ QUOTE ]
I think his point was that a pilot of a single-engine fighter wouldn't be logging multi turbine time. I caught that too, as well as the guy's fairly obvious military bias.
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Change Single Engine to Single Seat, and It makes sense.
ONe thing to add about the military guys. And this isnt meant in any way really. But yes, You could be the ace of formation flying, weapons delployment etc. Those skills are realavant to Airline flying, but not directly. Take someone who has been trained from the beginning to be an airline pilot, and I think it would be an acceptable comparison.
[ QUOTE ]
I think his point was that a pilot of a single-engine fighter wouldn't be logging multi turbine time. I caught that too, as well as the guy's fairly obvious military bias.
[/ QUOTE ]
Change Single Engine to Single Seat, and It makes sense.
ONe thing to add about the military guys. And this isnt meant in any way really. But yes, You could be the ace of formation flying, weapons delployment etc. Those skills are realavant to Airline flying, but not directly. Take someone who has been trained from the beginning to be an airline pilot, and I think it would be an acceptable comparison.
Re: One airline\'s view
Perhaps another important factor that we're not looking at is the ability to 'improvise'.
You can train to be an airline pilot from step one, and having done my private at a small FBO (We're talking three non-Ag airplanes at my school) and having graduated from a collegiate aviation program, I'd say the single thing that helped me the most in my flying is to 'let go' of some of the things that I learned in my collegiate aviation program.
We were trained, from day one, to think like airline pilots. Almost to the point where we were non-functional without a checklist or procedure.
MikeD, remember the "Headsets....ON" part of the four page Cessna 172Q checklist?
Looking back, I'm not sure if you can really train someone to be an airline pilot. Sure you can train the mechanics of flying a jet, but gaining the ability to build the 'big picture' in your head takes years and really can't be taught.
I think you can have all of your ratings at a low flight time, but then you're simply responding to obvious stimuli. ATC says "Hold at the marker" so you hold. Well, if you had been listening up when they were slowing other aircraft down and giving wide delay vectors, you'd be thinking that you're probably going to end up holding so start working on what your 'bingo' fuel is going to be and when you'd like to bug out from the holding fix and divert. So when the inevitable call comes to hold, you've already got a plan "A", "B" and "C" built. Because we spend far more time on non-essential crap like hold entries rather than essential stuff like when to exitthe hold.
Geez, don't I ramble on and on sometimes?
What was my point again? ha!
Perhaps another important factor that we're not looking at is the ability to 'improvise'.
You can train to be an airline pilot from step one, and having done my private at a small FBO (We're talking three non-Ag airplanes at my school) and having graduated from a collegiate aviation program, I'd say the single thing that helped me the most in my flying is to 'let go' of some of the things that I learned in my collegiate aviation program.
We were trained, from day one, to think like airline pilots. Almost to the point where we were non-functional without a checklist or procedure.
MikeD, remember the "Headsets....ON" part of the four page Cessna 172Q checklist?
Looking back, I'm not sure if you can really train someone to be an airline pilot. Sure you can train the mechanics of flying a jet, but gaining the ability to build the 'big picture' in your head takes years and really can't be taught.
I think you can have all of your ratings at a low flight time, but then you're simply responding to obvious stimuli. ATC says "Hold at the marker" so you hold. Well, if you had been listening up when they were slowing other aircraft down and giving wide delay vectors, you'd be thinking that you're probably going to end up holding so start working on what your 'bingo' fuel is going to be and when you'd like to bug out from the holding fix and divert. So when the inevitable call comes to hold, you've already got a plan "A", "B" and "C" built. Because we spend far more time on non-essential crap like hold entries rather than essential stuff like when to exitthe hold.
Geez, don't I ramble on and on sometimes?
Re: One airline\'s view
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps another important factor that we're not looking at is the ability to 'improvise'.
You can train to be an airline pilot from step one, and having done my private at a small FBO (We're talking three non-Ag airplanes at my school) and having graduated from a collegiate aviation program, I'd say the single thing that helped me the most in my flying is to 'let go' of some of the things that I learned in my collegiate aviation program.
We were trained, from day one, to think like airline pilots. Almost to the point where we were non-functional without a checklist or procedure.
MikeD, remember the "Headsets....ON" part of the four page Cessna 172Q checklist?
Looking back, I'm not sure if you can really train someone to be an airline pilot. Sure you can train the mechanics of flying a jet, but gaining the ability to build the 'big picture' in your head takes years and really can't be taught.
I think you can have all of your ratings at a low flight time, but then you're simply responding to obvious stimuli. ATC says "Hold at the marker" so you hold. Well, if you had been listening up when they were slowing other aircraft down and giving wide delay vectors, you'd be thinking that you're probably going to end up holding so start working on what your 'bingo' fuel is going to be and when you'd like to bug out from the holding fix and divert. So when the inevitable call comes to hold, you've already got a plan "A", "B" and "C" built. Because we spend far more time on non-essential crap like hold entries rather than essential stuff like when to exitthe hold.
Geez, don't I ramble on and on sometimes?
What was my point again? ha!
[/ QUOTE ]
"Headsets.....ON". OMG, yes, I remember that! That was as bad as that FA-416 flight course that was "CRM in a Seminole", but really, was nothing more than the MEI getting more time that you were paying for. Don't get me started on the ERAU King Air C-90 program that you paid a ton of money to get a high altitude signoff (something that'll REALLY help you in those entry-level flying jobs).......and even so, DAB had that C-90 most of the time anyway!
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps another important factor that we're not looking at is the ability to 'improvise'.
You can train to be an airline pilot from step one, and having done my private at a small FBO (We're talking three non-Ag airplanes at my school) and having graduated from a collegiate aviation program, I'd say the single thing that helped me the most in my flying is to 'let go' of some of the things that I learned in my collegiate aviation program.
We were trained, from day one, to think like airline pilots. Almost to the point where we were non-functional without a checklist or procedure.
MikeD, remember the "Headsets....ON" part of the four page Cessna 172Q checklist?
Looking back, I'm not sure if you can really train someone to be an airline pilot. Sure you can train the mechanics of flying a jet, but gaining the ability to build the 'big picture' in your head takes years and really can't be taught.
I think you can have all of your ratings at a low flight time, but then you're simply responding to obvious stimuli. ATC says "Hold at the marker" so you hold. Well, if you had been listening up when they were slowing other aircraft down and giving wide delay vectors, you'd be thinking that you're probably going to end up holding so start working on what your 'bingo' fuel is going to be and when you'd like to bug out from the holding fix and divert. So when the inevitable call comes to hold, you've already got a plan "A", "B" and "C" built. Because we spend far more time on non-essential crap like hold entries rather than essential stuff like when to exitthe hold.
Geez, don't I ramble on and on sometimes?
[/ QUOTE ]
"Headsets.....ON". OMG, yes, I remember that! That was as bad as that FA-416 flight course that was "CRM in a Seminole", but really, was nothing more than the MEI getting more time that you were paying for. Don't get me started on the ERAU King Air C-90 program that you paid a ton of money to get a high altitude signoff (something that'll REALLY help you in those entry-level flying jobs).......and even so, DAB had that C-90 most of the time anyway!