SJS article question

Says the guy that's never instructed.
I'll stack my non-instructor stick & rudder skills against yours any day, man.

Oh, and this just in from the "You know you're a CFI when..." thread:
...you've logged more than 70+ hours but only flown about 3
Yeah, I can certainly see how that'd develop ninja-like stick & rudder skills. :rolleyes:

My feet never, ever, EVER came off the rudder pedals. If you had ever instructed you'd know why.
Cuz you're not into teaching your students proper use of rudder?
 
You're a fool if you really believe that primary instruction doesn't help you in becoming a better pilot. The stick and rudder skills I developed while banging up the pattern in Arlington helped me when things turned varsity in the jet and I had to, get this, hand fly the thing. I know we like to say it's all button pushing and instrument procedures, but if you can't get the plane on the ground when it's gusting 45 knots and you've got moderate turbulence to 50', then you're worthless or more likely, a liability.

haha, this reminds me of an FO I had into PVD. brand new and green, but cocky and overconfident.... until the approach into PVD. It was my leg and he got the ATIS, reporting gusts to 40 on the ground and comments "its right down the runway, easy". He wasnt ready for the moderate tubulence inside the FAF, which is coincidentally about the time he checked out. Didnt say a word until we were pulling up to the gate, his knuckles white from the death-grip he had on the handgrips near the window. All he could muster, and quite sincere, "i'm glad it wasnt my turn". I was glad too.
 
haha, this reminds me of an FO I had into PVD. brand new and green, but cocky and overconfident.... until the approach into PVD. It was my leg and he got the ATIS, reporting gusts to 40 on the ground and comments "its right down the runway, easy". He wasnt ready for the moderate tubulence inside the FAF, which is coincidentally about the time he checked out. Didnt say a word until we were pulling up to the gate, his knuckles white from the death-grip he had on the handgrips near the window. All he could muster, and quite sincere, "i'm glad it wasnt my turn". I was glad too.

Thats why "new school" JAFFO's nowadays are taught these three simple comments before even learning about the plane they fly...
  • Heck of a X- Wind Captain.
  • Great Landing, I could have never done that.
  • I'll take the ugly one.
Seems like the instruction and exposure to real world flying takes place on the line with paying unknowing passengers in the back. No wonder I'd rather drive a rental across the country when I really have a desire to get somewhere... :p
 
I'll stack my non-instructor stick & rudder skills against yours any day, man.

Oh, and this just in from the "You know you're a CFI when..." thread:

Yeah, I can certainly see how that'd develop ninja-like stick & rudder skills. :rolleyes:


Cuz you're not into teaching your students proper use of rudder?

Mostly because I've had people try to spin me on base to final, but you can think whatever you'd like.
 
Yeah Zap,
If we wanted to learn how to get a job at wal-mart, we'd come to you!

I wanna fly big jets, im not liking the propeller infront of me!


Wow! I think you need to look at Zap's signature. He does know what he is talking about. He works where he works out of personal preference. Being home pretty much every night, making more your first year than you will at any regional for at least three years.

I think this is part of the attitude that was talked about in the referenced article. No respect for somebody who has some experience. Granted some people who have been around for a while need an attitude change too.

If you do go out to dinner with Zap, the empanada's at on the boarders are pretty good.
 
I don't disagree with you, but instructing isn't the only way to develop those stick and rudder skills by any stretch. Let's be honest, much of any instructor's dual-given time is with his/her hands in his lap and feet flat on the floor.

Says the guy that's never instructed.

My feet never, ever, EVER came off the rudder pedals. If you had ever instructed you'd know why.


THe one time I took my feet off the rudder pedals, I had a student put a seminole on it's back at 800 feet in the traffic pattern. I thank God for the stick and rudder skills I gained as a CFI for being able to recover at 300 feet.

I watched a new hire roll a 767ER sim onto it's back and crash on a SE go around. Even though he had a bunch of RJ time, he had never done any upset training or had taken an airplane's controls to their limits. He never used all the aileron and rudder because he never thought that he had too. As Doug can attest, you firewall an ER and don't plant the rudder, you're going for a very short ride. Worse than an EMB-120.
 
I don't disagree with you, but instructing isn't the only way to develop those stick and rudder skills by any stretch. Let's be honest, much of any instructor's dual-given time is with his/her hands in his lap and feet flat on the floor.

For you to make that comment, it's clear you don't have much time as a primary flight instructor. As a flight instructor, you get to the point where you can really feel the airplane. You are five steps ahead of the student, and can see exactly what is going to happen before the student ever has a clue.

As a primary flight instructor, I was able to make my airplane do whatever I needed it to do, 100% every time. I was so confident in my flying skills that I knew exactly how far I could let the student explore the envelope without getting us a one way ticket to bent metal.

Rumor has it that a lot of the low time RJ pilots struggle with the visual approach. It sounds silly to the uninitiated, but if you think about it a visual approach is pretty complicated. You are making decisions based entirely on visual cues at an airport that is unfamiliar. To do it well, you must be able to sense what the wind is doing, how high you are, the correct rate of descent, appropriate aim point on the runway, correct runway, flying much faster airspeeds, stabilized criteria lowered to 500 ft AGL, etc. In many ways, this is much more difficult than just tuning the localizer, hitting the "APPR" button, and being fully configured at Vapp by 1000 AGL.

This is the stuff you learn as a primary flight instructor. It balances well with CFII experience and is (IMO) part of the overall package that makes a good entry level pilot for 121/135.
 
I'll stack my non-instructor stick & rudder skills against yours any day, man.

Oh, and this just in from the "You know you're a CFI when..." thread:

Yeah, I can certainly see how that'd develop ninja-like stick & rudder skills. :rolleyes:


Cuz you're not into teaching your students proper use of rudder?

Just like we know all you traffic watch guys do is run up and down the same highway all day? Gimme a break...

As someone that did a lot of aerobatic training before my CFI, I prided myself on developing students that had a strong understanding of theory and practical use of the rudder. Still, things happen and if a CFI was flying around with feet flat on the floor, trouble's gonna show up.
 
I'll stack my non-instructor stick & rudder skills against yours any day, man.

I think this deserves its own thread! Let's come up with some ideas how aloft and jtrain can engage in a "stick & rudder skills" competition. Some of my ideas:

- Each must do a low level Bob Hoover routine in an AC500. The first one to crash loses a point. If they die, they lose two points.

- Each must taxi a P-51 through an obstacle course. First one that ground loops loses a point.

- Each must go up with a student who cross-controls the base to final turn. The student will be played by Seggy and will mimic panic by mashing and freezing on one of the rudder panels. The first to spin and crash loses a point.

- Each will attempt to hover a helicopter. The first to crash loses a point. Again, a two point loss for a death.
 
I think this deserves its own thread! Let's come up with some ideas how aloft and jtrain can engage in a "stick & rudder skills" competition. Some of my ideas:

- Each must do a low level Bob Hoover routine in an AC500. The first one to crash loses a point. If they die, they lose two points.

- Each must taxi a P-51 through an obstacle course. First one that ground loops loses a point.

- Each must go up with a student who cross-controls the base to final turn. The student will be played by Seggy and will mimic panic by mashing and freezing on one of the rudder panels. The first to spin and crash loses a point.

- Each will attempt to hover a helicopter. The first to crash loses a point. Again, a two point loss for a death.

When do tickets go on sale??? I want to make sure I get front row for this event! :D
 
When do tickets go on sale??? I want to make sure I get front row for this event! :D

Me too - it's going to be a good show. I mean, Jtrain hasn't flown in 6 months, so advantage aloft. Then again, Jtrain has experience in planes bigger than a 182. Advantage Jtrain. Jtrain has a few more hours than aloft, but both are around a thousand, so no advantage there. I think Jtrain is in better shape so he can probably handle g-forces and impact forces better than aloft. He's also younger, so his fine motor skills might be more precise. However, Aloft's recency of experience could easily trump that. Really, it's a toss-up.
 
Me too - it's going to be a good show. I mean, Jtrain hasn't flown in 6 months, so advantage aloft. Then again, Jtrain has experience in planes bigger than a 182. Advantage Jtrain. Jtrain has a few more hours than aloft, but both are around a thousand, so no advantage there. I think Jtrain is in better shape so he can probably handle g-forces and impact forces better than aloft. He's also younger, so his fine motor skills might be more precise. However, Aloft's recency of experience could easily trump that. Really, it's a toss-up.


:yup::yup::yup: You're killing me Ian:D
 
I'm siding with John on this one: my feet never leave the rudder pedals. Also, the left hand is poised to grab the throttle. You'd be asking for trouble to not have your feet on the pedals ready to intervene at all times.

Greg
 
Unfortunately that is not how this generation of newcomers and kids see it. There is a certain feel of entitlement that comes from having a company promise you a job for dropping $60K.

I don't see that at all. What I see is a re-alignment of values. What I think is happening is that new aviators are seeing the starting salariess, and thinking "Screw instructing, If I'm going to make crap money, I sure as hell ain't gonna put any more effort into it than I need to."

When I first started in this industry at Trans States Airlines, new hire pilots on the Jetstream made $14 an hour. With a 60 hour guarantee, their salary was just over 10K a year. I was amazed then, as I am now, what airlines expected for that kind of money: 4 year degree, ATP, at least 500 hours multiengine time. The way I saw it, airlines should have felt lucky to be getting someone with dried ink on their commercial certificate.

What amazed me more was the quality of the applicants they were getting. I remember meeting an ex-USAF A10 driver. 4 year degree, ATP, and 2000 hours of PIC Jet time, and he's working for 10K ayear. Are you F-ing kidding me? Guy was an officer, and probably could have gotten a good paying job in any number or professions, or stayed in the AF, yet here he is flying a jetstream for less than I was making as a scrub crew scheduler.

With everything that has happened in the last several years, and with what continues to happen today, it amazes me what people are willing to do to fly an airplane. These are the same people who then turn around and complain about the newbies and their so-called entitlement attitude. Seems to me the newbies got it right. Why work your a$$ off to be broke?
 
Why havent unions pushed for required minimums at airlines? As someone who is early in his training, just under 150 hours, it would not be an ideal situation for them to change it now. However, if it meant a smaller pool of qualified applicants airlines would then have to start competing to attract and maintain their pilots. This would mean higher salary when I eventually made it to an airline, which would be a good thing.

I am all for paying your dues. I am prepared to instruct/banner tow/charter on weekends as long as it takes and save as much as possible before I quit my current job and persue flying as a career.

When I apply to an airline it will not be to the one accepting the lowest number of hours, but one offering the best QOL, this includes pay. When I get in I will do my part to help improve the profession any way I can.

I refuse to subscribe to this "pay your dues" mentality. "Paying your dues" carries with it an entitlement attitude. "I paid my dues. I instructed. I flew charter. I flew commuter. Therefore I am entitled to that job at a major airline." These are the same people you hear saying "You didn't do any of those things. You don't deserve to be in that right seat of an RJ" And yet, all you hear about is the so-called "entitlement attitude" of the younger generation.

I refuse to "pay my dues." That implies that I owe something to somebody. On the other hand, I am happy to work to build my qualifications, and to take advantage of whatever opportunities may come my way as result. And I will be the one to decide if I am ready and qualified to take that job offer as a co-pilot on an RJ. I sure as hell don't want some union telling me whether or not I am "qualified."
 
For you to make that comment, it's clear you don't have much time as a primary flight instructor. As a flight instructor, [Blah, blah, blah...]

This is the stuff you learn as a primary flight instructor. It balances well with CFII experience and is (IMO) part of the overall package that makes a good entry level pilot for 121/135.
You (and most CFIs, really) seem to be under the impression that instructing is the ONLY way to learn this stuff, and that's a pretty narrow viewpoint.

Just like we know all you traffic watch guys do is run up and down the same highway all day? Gimme a break...
I've only been flying traffic since October. Before that, I was chief pilot for one of the Pictometry aerial mapping vendors. And let me tell you about aerial mapping flying: it's the most precise flying I'll probably ever do. Having to maintain a ground track within .022nm (do the math, that's about 130 feet) regardless of winds aloft, altitude within 100' and very narrow pitch, bank and crab limits, while operating the on-board camera system, communicating continuously with ATC and remaining vigilant for traffic in some of the country's busiest airspace requires not only solid stick & rudder skills, but every bit of mental concentration that flying an approach to minimums does. It's like flying an endless ILS for hours on end, every day.

Me too - it's going to be a good show. I mean, Jtrain hasn't flown in 6 months, so advantage aloft. Then again, Jtrain has experience in planes bigger than a Seneca. Advantage Jtrain. Jtrain has a few more hours than aloft, but both are around a thousand, so no advantage there. I think Jtrain is in better shape so he can probably handle g-forces and impact forces better than aloft. He's also younger, so his fine motor skills might be more precise. However, Aloft's recency of experience could easily trump that. Really, it's a toss-up.
Fixed. Still trying to figure out how experience flying a jet that's on autopilot most of the time is gonna help stick and rudder skills. Even when it's being hand-flown in the first 1000 and the last 500 ft or whatever, we're talking what, maybe four or five minutes of hand-flying per leg? Yeah, I'm sure that'll keep one nice and sharp. The big difference experiencewise between John and I is this: 99.9% of the 990 hrs in my logbook were hand-flown by me. Not on autopilot (never flown with one), not as PNF, not monitoring a student, not acting as a safety pilot. I'd love to hear exactly how many of John's hours involved actually piloting an aircraft. I'm gonna venture a guess that it's around maybe 400-500 tops.

On top of that, I've got mountain flying training and mountain search & rescue experience. Remember the search for Steve Fossett? Yeah, I was part of that effort.

My intent isn't to toot my own horn here, but it's my opinion that the diversity of my flying experience blows that of the average CFI with comparable times out of the water. Of course, one's mileage may vary, and there may be some CFIs out there with high-quality experience too. Moreover, being a good stick doesn't make one a good pilot; developing sound aeronautical judgment is every bit as vital--moreso, in fact. And here, I concede, CFIs may have an advantage.

I also recognize that not every non-CFI is gonna have the same sort of experience that I've had. The typical non-CFI timebuilding jobs like traffic watch, banner/glider towing, and dropping skydivers are all pretty narrow in terms of the experience they provide.

And just for the record, none of this is to suggest that I'm a better pilot than jtrain, or vice-versa. We're both solid pilots, I have no doubt of that. He's got his strengths just as I've got mine. Just making the case that instructing isn't the only path to becoming one.
 
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