Single pilot IFR, widespread fog, low fuel, do you bust MDA/DH?
- Thread starter Tommay85
- Start date
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Indeed, that was the easy part of the discussion.
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
I see what you're saying there, but if you're going out of 6000 ft runways everywhere in a 210, do you really need the performance charts, or even have to worry about 120 extra lbs of fuel?
Granted, we're talkin a completely different kind of flying in AK, and what we do is kind of similar. I can tell you though, once you get into off airport landings, floats, etc... you've thrown the book out the window a long time ago. Even if they had performance data for things like floats, wing tip extensions, and gross weight increases (which they don't,) it wouldn't do you any good because you dont really know how much room you have to T/O and land most places anyway. A lot of eye balling going on.
Roger Roger
I am le tired
Weeeeelll as far as using the 15% over legally in Alaska, as I understand it there is a LOT of paperwork that has to be done to get that approved and very, very few places have done said paperwork to use that exemption legally.
z987k
Well-Known Member
It's far colder in the northern plains in the winter than JNU or ANC.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
Sure, but up north we used to have Uncle ted.
Plus, too, if you look at the reg, it only applies to old-ass airplanes, so, it's nto really applicable 99% of the time. Plus, the "northern plains" don't get nearly as cold as the interior.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
This very day in question I was out flying if I recall. The temp and dewpoint were close throughout the Dakotas and Minnesota, Minnesota fogged in, the Dakotas did in places the relative humidity was above 80% in most places, and the lights were haloing on the ground in FSD. The hell with the forecast, if you think its going to fog in hard, carry enough fuel to get someplace that definitely won't. Find someplace where its windy, or someplace with an ILS that's reliable that you know of.
If you can't make it to your real alternate (and I don't mean the one that works on paper, I mean the one that works if the weather really falls on its ass) , and you're pretty sure the forecast is going to be wrong, then you can scrub the flight (unlikely if its even remotely legal in cargo), you can bump freight for fuel (this can happen depending on the company) or you can tanker gas and takeoff over gross (this is what happens if you have rent to pay, and work for a company that doesn't care). In a 210, there's not too much of a problem doing this, provided the runway's long, and you don't mind flying it outside the envelope. The honest truth is that there may be a few days a year where a little bit of safety fuel may save your bacon, but the risk of augering in and creating an even bigger fireball gets bigger - especially when you're most vulnerable on takeoff. That's up to the individual, and any company that says, "you'd better get out there and fly at min fuel on an iffy day" isn't a place you wanna work. If you can't kick a few boxes out of the back to get to a reasonable alternate, then you ought not be working there. But that's just how I view it, I don't land with less than 1hrs worth of fuel at a minimum, preferably more unless the weather is just absolutely beautiful, and no fog is reasonably possible. But, if I were a chief pilot, I'd do things a little bit differently, and let my guys bump freight for fuel if they needed to, but not everyone will do that in practice.
Part of the reason I like flying bigger equipment is I don't have to weigh those kinds of options because I have the speed to get to better weather the vast majority of the time, and the fuel reserves at the MZFW to make it happen, additionally, companies with bigger airplanes tend not to say things like, "well, hell, it'll do it, you don't need performance data" because you have to write down a lot of things.
If you can't make it to your real alternate (and I don't mean the one that works on paper, I mean the one that works if the weather really falls on its ass) , and you're pretty sure the forecast is going to be wrong, then you can scrub the flight (unlikely if its even remotely legal in cargo), you can bump freight for fuel (this can happen depending on the company) or you can tanker gas and takeoff over gross (this is what happens if you have rent to pay, and work for a company that doesn't care). In a 210, there's not too much of a problem doing this, provided the runway's long, and you don't mind flying it outside the envelope. The honest truth is that there may be a few days a year where a little bit of safety fuel may save your bacon, but the risk of augering in and creating an even bigger fireball gets bigger - especially when you're most vulnerable on takeoff. That's up to the individual, and any company that says, "you'd better get out there and fly at min fuel on an iffy day" isn't a place you wanna work. If you can't kick a few boxes out of the back to get to a reasonable alternate, then you ought not be working there. But that's just how I view it, I don't land with less than 1hrs worth of fuel at a minimum, preferably more unless the weather is just absolutely beautiful, and no fog is reasonably possible. But, if I were a chief pilot, I'd do things a little bit differently, and let my guys bump freight for fuel if they needed to, but not everyone will do that in practice.
Part of the reason I like flying bigger equipment is I don't have to weigh those kinds of options because I have the speed to get to better weather the vast majority of the time, and the fuel reserves at the MZFW to make it happen, additionally, companies with bigger airplanes tend not to say things like, "well, hell, it'll do it, you don't need performance data" because you have to write down a lot of things.
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Lots of posts in this thread, but I just want to add a "+1" to those who've said that you should never get close to this scenario in the first place. If you're consistently finding yourself fuel critical at your destination or alternate during low weather, you're doing something that will eventually bite you hard.
And consistently is the key word you mention. Can/will it happen here or there? Sure. There are always bad days or bad combos of events; but as you say, it should be the exception, not the norm.
FlyingScot
Spanish Proficient
I think the single pilot part of the equations is irrelevant. Whether you are solo, have a copilot or 300 people in the back, your ass is still in the sling. My first priority is to put it on some pavement, the easiest one is a runway with an ILS irrelevant of what the Atis is saying.
My personal policy is to land with an hour of fuel, in VFR conditions, add more cushioning for IFR. I will take a delay to get fuel or kick off freight to keep the plane in CG or below max gross. If enroute and my progress is slowed by headwinds or delays, I will consider diverting before letting myself get into a fuel starvation scenario. Flying single pilot your resources are limited. I figure my best tool is fuel in the tank and the options it provides.
My personal policy is to land with an hour of fuel, in VFR conditions, add more cushioning for IFR. I will take a delay to get fuel or kick off freight to keep the plane in CG or below max gross. If enroute and my progress is slowed by headwinds or delays, I will consider diverting before letting myself get into a fuel starvation scenario. Flying single pilot your resources are limited. I figure my best tool is fuel in the tank and the options it provides.
RICHARD5
Well-Known Member
Going missed in the OP scenario includes a 'gotcha'. You're in the corner and you know it. You're likely to maintain approach speed but with some turns to get back to the approach. Low fuel status, you unport in the turn, an engine coughs, lights out. TPA not enough alt to recover.
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
You may want to talk to some Texas based EMB drivers about the meaning of MIN T/O and why you don't want to be right up against it, 99% of the time.
FlyingScot
Spanish Proficient
Another big consideration is what yo are flying. My King Air burns under 600 lbs/hr at cruise and over 1000 on climb out at sea level. So at flight levels 600 lbs takes me almost 300nm, on missed approach it would take me to the scene of the accident. If my fuel is marginal I check weather an hour out and half hour out and divert for more fuel if need be, if closer and weather deteriorates I will consider diverting before descending. I had heard Lear 20 pilots describing missed approach scenarios a long time ago, didn't quite understand it then, but do now.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I had almost exactly this scenario happen to me in a be99 a few years back. Out PNL the taf was calling for IFR, but not even esp low IFR at my next two stops for the rest of the night, and there were plenty of good alternates just north of ATL (my eventual destination). Filed two flight plans, and blasted off. First stop was JAX, which was, as advertised, IFR, but not terrible. Taxied over to the freight ramp, loaded up, and blasted off again.
Do you see where this story is going south?
Started picking up the ATIS at hartsfield a leisurely 50 or so miles out uh...uhoh. RVR 1200 and dropping. Hmm. Check the alternate. Less than 1/4. Finally fess up to approach that I need help checking weather as I need to make a decision pretty damn quick. Luckily, the ATL approach people are pros (I have NEVER had a bad experience there. They could teach NY approach a thing or ten). They found some little place down in south Georgia that miraculously had an ILS and wasnt quite shut down yet. Think it was like 300/1/2. And worsening.
Anyway, to answer your question, I was going to end that flight on the airport. Maybe on the runway, maybe in the grass, maybe in a fireball, but I was going to the airport. Broke out around mins, landed, and spent the night freezing my balls off in the cockpit (this was whatever year they had that insane winter down South...2007? 2008?).
I think the moral of the story is: check the weather every time you land, foo!
Do you see where this story is going south?
Started picking up the ATIS at hartsfield a leisurely 50 or so miles out uh...uhoh. RVR 1200 and dropping. Hmm. Check the alternate. Less than 1/4. Finally fess up to approach that I need help checking weather as I need to make a decision pretty damn quick. Luckily, the ATL approach people are pros (I have NEVER had a bad experience there. They could teach NY approach a thing or ten). They found some little place down in south Georgia that miraculously had an ILS and wasnt quite shut down yet. Think it was like 300/1/2. And worsening.
Anyway, to answer your question, I was going to end that flight on the airport. Maybe on the runway, maybe in the grass, maybe in a fireball, but I was going to the airport. Broke out around mins, landed, and spent the night freezing my balls off in the cockpit (this was whatever year they had that insane winter down South...2007? 2008?).
I think the moral of the story is: check the weather every time you land, foo!
Roger Roger
I am le tired
A lot of the OGs up here tell me they'd rather go overweight any day than have to spend the night in places like Hoonah, Kake, or Angoon.
While I, of course, follow 14 CFR to the letter, I can see where they are coming from.
While I, of course, follow 14 CFR to the letter, I can see where they are coming from.
Would you rather fill out paperwork from the FAA, and fly the next day, or have your parents filling out funeral papers. Pretty easy decision if you ask me...
Joepilot84
Foxtrot Tango Whiskey
Ive never flown an airplane with gross weight increases under 135 that didnt have performance data, its part of the certification process for the mods, a requirement. That being said, in single engine airplanes what does it matter if your overweight, besides stressing the air frame, you only have one engine, so you lose it and your gonna hit the ground (or water) regardless (field length/obstacle clearance limitation not withstanding). In a piston twin its a different story, you lose the engine on take off out of a gravel strip in the mountains overweight you're screwed. So weight limitations start to matter. That being said, some VGs on the top of the wing of the navajo somehow magically allow you to carry an extra 400 pounds. But just wait till those bad boys start to pick up ice and it bridges... I dont know why the FAA certified that ridiculousness. Im getting off on a tangent here... Just remember, an ILS takes you to the runway, and they are all almost identical, why would you ever go missed?
Ive got a scenario for you though, how about your over the Aleutian mountains in a Navajo, you fought severe turbulence and icing and a head wind of 90 kts for over two hours on your way down from ANC, the wind in anchorage is shearing 70kts with 100mph gusts (started after you left), and your destination, a gravel strip in the mountains with an NDB approach which doesnt have weather forecasting, but was good (ceilings above 4000 and visibility over 20m ) when you left, is now 100' overcast and 1/2 mile vis. King salmon is calling 100 overcast and 1/2m as well, so you cant even begin the approach. You left with round trip fuel plus a 45 min reserve, there are no other viable alternates, what do you do?
RICHARD5
Well-Known Member
Is it 30 minutes in one tank or spread across multiple tanks? It makes a big diff. I'm landing, especially when inside VDP. Going around to try again means you aren't flying the profile because with so little in the tanks you aren't banking standard rate in order to not unport the tank. Your 747 pattern just took you away from a "safe" zone and flying towards the unknown. It just heaps more anxiety/increased risk.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
"WAM" or "We Ain't Missing"