Single Engine Add-on

[Fly_Unity]

Ok I have a student that is an ex military pilot who hasnt flown in 20 years, he has 1600 hours, but all in a twin engine jet with a commercial license.

I havnt found it in the FAR's, but can I do a private pilot add-on? or does it have to be a commercial add-on? Can I sign him off to solo? or will he need a student pilots license? Do I need to give him a BFR before his checkride? before he solo's? or even at all?

Thanks

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

What privileges are on the certificate? Just Commercial, Multi-Engine Land?

He would need a flight review to act as PIC during the checkride, as I would guess most examiners would not agree to do so.

 

[tgrayson]

I havnt found it in the FAR's, but can I do a private pilot add-on? or does it have to be a commercial add-on? Can I sign him off to solo? or will he need a student pilots license? Do I need to give him a BFR before his checkride? before he solo's? or even at all?

You won't find it explicitly in the FARs, but a pilot of a given certificate level is assumed to possess lower level certificates; this is why a Commercial pilot doesn't give up his pro rata cost sharing privileges, even though they aren't explicitly given in the Commercial pilot privileges section. So this falls into the policy area of the FAA, and I believe that this pilot should be able to add a SE rating to his phantom private pilot certificate, but you ought to verify that with an experienced examiner.

He doesn't need a student certificate, since you're only a student once your life (unless you fail a 709 ride, I suppose), but you will need to sign him off per 61.31(c). Note that the flight review must be performed in an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, so it will have to be a twin. Since he can't act as PIC without the FR, he'll need it before soloing.

 

[Fly_Unity]

So I dont have to give him a FR? Treat him just like a Student?

 

[Fly_Unity]

What about an IPC? Or will the Examiner do Instrument approaches on the Private ride?

I remember answering this on my CFI ride, but its been years since I had to remember this stuff

 

[tgrayson]

So I don't have to give him a FR? Treat him just like a Student?

This person is not a student pilot and none of the student pilot regulations apply to him. You'd give him the same endorsements you'd give someone coming to you asking for a multi-engine add-on. He'll need a flight review before he can act as PIC.

Or will the Examiner do Instrument approaches on the Private ride?

No.

Again, verify with the examiner that you intend to use before you make any commitments to the student. Policy could have changed on this.

 

[Fly_Unity]

ok, so now I'm confused, he can not solo without a flight review, He can not get a flight review because hes not rated in class, he can not get rated because he can not get the solo requirements. gah

 

[Guy]

Ok I have a student that is an ex military pilot who hasnt flown in 20 years, he has 1600 hours, but all in a twin engine jet with a commercial license.

I havnt found it in the FAR's, but can I do a private pilot add-on? or does it have to be a commercial add-on? Can I sign him off to solo? or will he need a student pilots license? Do I need to give him a BFR before his checkride? before he solo's? or even at all?

Thanks

To be precise, he hold a commercial certificate, not a license. In a case such as this, being precise is important because as you read the regulations the words category, class, and many others take on extra importance in ensuring the person meets the requirements for the test.

Before your student can solo, he needs an endorsement in his logbook just as you would place in any other student's logbook. He does not need a student certificate or the endorsement that you would normally make on the student certificate. He will need a current medical certificate before solo, again, just as any other student would (unless you are using light sport).

Your student does not need a flight review in order to take the practical test (check ride). The student will be the PIC during the practical test whether he has a flight review or not, just the same as your more conventional students.

Do carefully read the regulations for eligibility and ensure every I is dotted and each T is crossed. Do not assume the student knows anything or can do anything until you verify it yourself.

His practical test will be from the Private Pilot PTS. Look at the "Additional Rating Task Table" in the PTS. That shows the tasks on which he MUST be tested. At the examiner's discretion, they CAN test on any or all tasks above and beyond the required minimum. However, the common experience is that the examiner will limit the test to the required items and any tasks beyond that are just those that would occur normally (for example, Task D of Area of Operation II is Taxiing, which is not required, but is going to be demonstrated in normal operation).
.
.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

ok, so now I'm confused, he can not solo without a flight review, He can not get a flight review because hes not rated in class, he can not get rated because he can not get the solo requirements. gah

He would need an endorsement to act as PIC in an Airplane, Single Engine Land. This endorsement is not a student solo endorsement. It doesn't need an expiration date attached to it. The endorsement is in AC-65-61E.

35. To act as PIC of an aircraft in solo operations when the pilot who does not hold an appropriate
category/class rating: § 61.31(d)(3)
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the training as required by § 61.31(d)(3) to serve as a
PIC in a (category and class of aircraft). I have determined that he/she is prepared to serve as PIC in that
(make and model of aircraft).
S/S [date] J.J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-00

He can take a private checkride in a single, it would add "Private Privileges, ASEL" to his commercial certificate. Or it could be done as a commercial ride too (Or recreational, sport pilot, or ATP for that matter).

The problem is that he can't be PIC in a single without a current flight review, which probably has to be done in a twin.

 

[Brian Z]

Give him the BFR in a twin. That gets him current. He does not need to do a BFR in a single to fly a single. On second thought, does he really need a BFR? An added rating or certificate satisfies the need for a BFR.

Then get him proficient in the PSEL maneuvers and sign him off. He does not need to solo. His CMEL implies that he has already met the requirements for a PMEL. Look at it this way. If he only had a PMEL would you have to resolo him in a single for a single add on? All you need to do is get him current and then proficient.

When in doubt call the FSDO and get even more confused.

 

[tgrayson]

Your student does not need a flight review in order to take the practical test (check ride).

Evidence?

The student will be the PIC during the practical test whether he has a flight review or not, just the same as your more conventional students.

No, 61.56(g) exempts student pilots from the flight review requirement.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Then get him proficient in the PSEL maneuvers and sign him off. He does not need to solo. His CMEL implies that he has already met the requirements for a PMEL. Look at it this way. If he only had a PMEL would you have to resolo him in a single for a single add on? All you need to do is get him current and then proficient.

I don't believe he should need any solo time anyway, as per 61.63:

Basically, you just sign him off for the ASEL private ride whenever you think he is ready. That will count as a Flight Review, so he's good to go after passing it.

(c) Additional aircraft class rating. A person who applies for an additional class rating on a pilot certificate:

(1) Must have a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor attesting that the person was found competent in the appropriate aeronautical knowledge areas and proficient in the appropriate areas of operation.

(2) Must pass the practical test.

(3) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought; unless, the person only holds a lighter-than-air category rating with a balloon class rating and is seeking an airship class rating, then that person must receive the specified training time requirements and possess the appropriate aeronautical experience.

(4) Need not take an additional knowledge test if the person holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

 

[Fly_Unity]

so he cant solo in a single under any provision unless he gets a flight review in a twin? I think that is dumb.

 

[MikeD]

so he cant solo in a single under any provision unless he gets a flight review in a twin? I think that is dumb.

The twin is the only thing he's rated in.

Where I work, I cant get guys to fly as safety pilot with me in a T210 for instrument currency because most are either AMEL only, or Rotorcraft-Helo only. Of all the prior-mil guys, I'm the only one with an ASEL.

 

[Fly_Unity]

The twin is the only thing he's rated in.

Where I work, I cant get guys to fly as safety pilot with me in a T210 for instrument currency because most are either AMEL only, or Rotorcraft-Helo only. Of all the prior-mil guys, I'm the only one with an ASEL.

And we just cant hop in the Twin to do the FR, because he is limited to centerline thrust.

 

[MikeD]

And we just cant hop in the Twin to do the FR, because he is limited to centerline thrust.

Awesome.

Which is funny, because an AMEL-Centerline Thrust Only, is essentially an ASEL in a weird-logic kind of way.

Got any Skymaster's sitting around locally?

 

[Guy]

Evidence?

No, 61.56(g) exempts student pilots from the flight review requirement.

I must be missing your question. You seem to ask a question, answer it, and also argue with your answer.

14 CFR 61.56(g) is the reference, along with the fact the rated student pilot is operating with student pilot privileges while undergoing training and checking in an aircraft for which they are not rated.

A student pilot need not accomplish the flight review required by this section provided the student pilot is undergoing training for a certificate and has a current solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part.

.
.
.

 

[Guy]

so he cant solo in a single under any provision unless he gets a flight review in a twin? I think that is dumb.

You're right, it would be if it were the case, but it isn't. However, because you are getting so many conflicting answers here, why not call the FSDO on Monday and talk with the GA Operations Inspector on duty just to put your mind at ease that you are doing the right thing.
.
.
.
.

 

[tgrayson]

I must be missing your question. .
.

What you seem to be missing is the pilot is question is not a student pilot, he's a commercial pilot, so 61.56(g) does not apply.

 

[tgrayson]

And we just cant hop in the Twin to do the FR, because he is limited to centerline thrust.

Hmmm, I'm skeptical that this matters. He might not be able to act as PIC of that airplane, but he is "rated", since he has a ME rating.