Signing Bonuses or Turd Sandwich

dasleben said:
I was going to say... Why on earth would competent union leadership sign an LOA for new-hire bonuses (and why would the pilot group vote for it)? That'd be huge leverage to bring them to the table for improvements elsewhere.
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Nice to see a fellow Lebowski
 
The unions aren't fighting for higher wages in lieu of a hiring bonus because they don't want higher wages. Many a thread on this forum has had at least one person say "You should have to pay your dues just like I did."

It's a rather archaic way of thinking akin to "We didn't have ground lugs in home outlets for 60 years, we don't need them now." Economic pressures certainly never changed and never have any impact on the pilot pool, right?
 
esa17 said:
The unions aren't fighting for higher wages in lieu of a hiring bonus because they don't want higher wages. Many a thread on this forum has had at least one person say "You should have to pay your dues just like I did."

It's a rather archaic way of thinking akin to "We didn't have ground lugs in home outlets for 60 years, we don't need them now." Economic pressures certainly never changed and never have any impact on the pilot pool, right?
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At RAH, (I'm no longer there) the Union basically said, "give us a reasonable and balanced contract that benefits everyone. Why does someone that's been on property for 10 years get nothing, but the guy that just showed up get a 30% pay increase?"
 
Not 121, so just my unedumacated thought that the company has a number they're willing to spend on pilots. They'd be fine with upping first year pay, but that means less on the more senior end. It makes sense to me the pilots on the negotiating committee are of the more senior type, and thus would not want to see brand new starry-eyed FO's getting 'moar cheddar at the expense of their own paychecks.
 
esa17 said:
The unions aren't fighting for higher wages in lieu of a hiring bonus because they don't want higher wages. Many a thread on this forum has had at least one person say "You should have to pay your dues just like I did."

It's a rather archaic way of thinking akin to "We didn't have ground lugs in home outlets for 60 years, we don't need them now." Economic pressures certainly never changed and never have any impact on the pilot pool, right?
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I swear, pilots can't even make up their minds about what idiotic conspiracy theory they want to use for the union. When it suits them they'll claim that the union only cares about dues (money) revenue, and when that doesn't suit them they claim that the union doesn't care about that because the union wants to force people to "pay their dues" figuratively. Make up your minds. It's all ridiculous and untrue, but at least pick one. :rolleyes:
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I swear, pilots can't even make up their minds about what idiotic conspiracy theory they want to use for the union. When it suits them they'll claim that the union only cares about dues (money) revenue, and when that doesn't suit them they claim that the union doesn't care about that because the union wants to force people to "pay their dues" figuratively. Make up your minds. It's all ridiculous and untrue, but at least pick one. :rolleyes:
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Amen. As a P2P guy at my company, I have to roll my eyes at some of the stuff people come up with when the truth is generally much less dramatic. My favorite, 2 months after our new EXCO (MEC) took office:

"Why aren't the 767 rates fixed yet?!"
"The company has been stonewalling... They haven't come to the table at all."
"The union should force them to!"
"It's being worked on, trust me. We need to show solidarity and fly the CBA in the meantime... That's how we're going to get our leverage."
[completely ignores me, goes on a rant about "the union"]

Rinse and repeat...
 
dasleben said:
Amen. As a P2P guy at my company, I have to roll my eyes at some of the stuff people come up with when the truth is generally much less dramatic. My favorite, 2 months after our new EXCO (MEC) took office:

"Why aren't the 767 rates fixed yet?!"
"The company has been stonewalling... They haven't come to the table at all."
"The union should force them to!"
"It's being worked on, trust me. We need to show solidarity and fly the CBA in the meantime... That's how we're going to get our leverage."
[completely ignores me, goes on a rant about "the union"]

Rinse and repeat...
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Imagine having that same conversation over and over again for 12 years, and then you'll know why I'm such a dick. :)
 
MOGuy424 said:
Could we start a thread addressing this ridiculousness of the Signing/retention bonuses? While I do not have all the facts and am still 100% unclear how these work or why they are better then upping first year pay, it seems like a scam to me.

From what I know, and believe me, I appear to know than what you might think I do not know that I know =o). But these signing and retention bonuses seem like:

1) They are company instituted and not blessed by the union, so my understanding is that these can go just as easily as they came. Why are the unions not fighting the company on these and demanding better first year pay and contracts?

2) My other understanding (or misunderstanding) are that these bonuses can be subject to almost as much at 40% tax rates, thus a 20k bonus works out closer to 11k (turd sandwich)

I pulled this from the IRS Q&A site so this along with others just telling me that they are highly taxed is the source of my understanding:

"The IRS has rules for withholding on "supplemental wages" - which includes bonus payments - that differ from their withholding rules on regular wages. Assuming that your bonus was less than $1 million, the employer has a choice of withholding a flat 25%, or combining the bonus with the regular wages, computing the withholding as though that were a single payment, subtracting out what would have been withheld from the regular wages, and withholding the remaining amount from the bonus payment. The method chosen depends on the employer's payroll system but will typically be higher than your normal withholding rate. The employer will also withhold Social Security and Medicare (combined rate of 7.65%) and state taxes, which is probably what pushes the total withholding close to 50%".

If anyone with knowledge can chime in I'd appreciate it. And if this is truth then new FO's really need to see the bonuses for what they are, turd sandwiches.

Cheers!;)
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I've always been under the impression that first year pay is more of a union choice than a company choice. That is, the union gives ground on the first year pay, in order to get something higher up in the pay scale. But that's beside the point. There is only so much money in the till for salaries, and that number is driven by the value of the flying contract with the mainline partner. Unless the regional can get more money out of the mainline, the regional has to make it work with the money they have. So it seems that a change in negotiating priorities may be in order. For first year pay to be increased, the money will have to be taken from some other area of the contract.

I think it will be interesting to see how these things affect RFP's and flying contracts between regionals and mainlines.
 
Flying Saluki said:
I've always been under the impression that first year pay is more of a union choice than a company choice. That is, the union gives ground on the first year pay, in order to get something higher up in the pay scale. But that's beside the point. There is only so much money in the till for salaries, and that number is driven by the value of the flying contract with the mainline partner. Unless the regional can get more money out of the mainline, the regional has to make it work with the money they have. So it seems that a change in negotiating priorities may be in order. For first year pay to be increased, the money will have to be taken from some other area of the contract.

I think it will be interesting to see how these things affect RFP's and flying contracts between regionals and mainlines.
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Eh. You can battle for first you pay all you want, there will be a line out the door for a good place no matter what first year pay is. Focus on the seniority list whose been there building the company up.

My opinion.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Eh. You can battle for first you pay all you want, there will be a line out the door for a good place no matter what first year pay is. Focus on the seniority list whose been there building the company up.

My opinion.
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Couldn't that be viewed as pulling up the ladder though? (honest question, not stirring the pot here.)
 
Bama said:
The Endeavor deal will not last long. I give it up to September before it's gone. To believe that Delta is in the business of giving away money is silly.
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Please, enlighten us as to how you think that is going to happen?

Like @ATN_Pilot said, nothing is 100%, but they can't just simply walk away from a two-party agreed upon contract document without either shutting us down, Chapter 11, or some other offer to get the MEC on-board with repealing the LOA.

Stop spewing non-sense that the retention payments aren't going to happen. The company cannot simply repeal LOAs willy-nilly.

To anyone considering coming to 9E please be careful listening to the very few that believe they have a crystal ball that predicts the incredibly improbable.
 
ozziecat35 said:
Couldn't that be viewed as pulling up the ladder though? (honest question, not stirring the pot here.)
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How so? It would only be pulling up the ladder if you got good first year pay but then traded it away for something else after you moved up. If everyone is suffering through the same first year pay, no ladder is being pulled up. Companies like low probie pay, and frankly, they have a lot of good reasons for it.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
How so? It would only be pulling up the ladder if you got good first year pay but then traded it away for something else after you moved up. If everyone is suffering through the same first year pay, no ladder is being pulled up. Companies like low probie pay, and frankly, they have a lot of good reasons for it.
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I guess it just seems like the mentality there is "Well, since I won't ever be on first year pay again, I don't care about that, instead I want to butter my bread first."

And I get that, I do, but it also presents the image that the existing pilot group (negotiating committee) also doesn't give a damn about the new guys. I know I'd want to push for a regional that appeared to have a group that honestly cared for the tribe as a whole, not the senior guys.Instead, it's a "We did our time, and suffered through it, so now you get to as well" mentality.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
How so? It would only be pulling up the ladder if you got good first year pay but then traded it away for something else after you moved up. If everyone is suffering through the same first year pay, no ladder is being pulled up. Companies like low probie pay, and frankly, they have a lot of good reasons for it.
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If there is money to throw out retention bonuses for every pilot on property, then there certainly is money for increasing first year pay.

ozziecat35 said:
I guess it just seems like the mentality there is "Well, since I won't ever be on first year pay again, I don't care about that, instead I want to butter my bread first."

And I get that, I do, but it also presents the image that the existing pilot group (negotiating committee) also doesn't give a damn about the new guys. I know I'd want to push for a regional that appeared to have a group that honestly cared for the tribe as a whole, not the senior guys.Instead, it's a "We did our time, and suffered through it, so now you get to as well" mentality.
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bronco21016 said:
Please, enlighten us as to how you think that is going to happen?

.
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This. Senior pilots need to quit being so self-centered with an "I paid my dues attitude!", and by senior I mean greater than one year on the line or however long to come off probation. Not saying senior pay should be reduced, but hell if I could get new guys better pay first year id gladly forgo a bonus. Why? Well because where I am we have pretty good pay for industry, not first year, but overall. I am second year going on 3rd clearing 41.00/hr. Get rid of bonuses and give a pay increase for the first year.
 
MOGuy424 said:
If there is money to throw out retention bonuses for every pilot on property, then there certainly is money for increasing first year pay.




This. Senior pilots need to quit being so self-centered with an "I paid my dues attitude!", and by senior I mean greater than one year on the line or however long to come off probation. Not saying senior pay should be reduced, but hell if I could get new guys better pay first year id gladly forgo a bonus. Why? Well because where I am we have pretty good pay for industry, not first year, but overall. I am second year going on 3rd clearing 41.00/hr. Get rid of bonuses and give a pay increase for the first year.
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Not sure why you quoted me?
 
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