Scrutiny of Gulfstream Intensifies

wheelsup said:
Those two statements are contradictory. Either it's safer to have it or it's not.
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No they're not. Read the meat of what I'm saying. I'm saying that that while it may be a "goodie to have" onboard as an extra measure of safety; NOT having it doesn't mean you're doing something suddenly unsafe.

My problem is people who say that NOT having one is somehow unsafe, as that's BS. To those people, I say look outside some instead of staring at the panel at the gauge. Aviation did exist prior to TCAS.
 
Hmmm remember piper 77n in rkd? 4 leaf clover patters at 500 ft, no transponder, no radio calls, and no regard for anybody or anything else in the area?

jynxyjoe said:
*shrug* Florida isn't the best place to be be-bopping around without a TCAS. Of course, if Center clears out a whole MOA/restricted area for you I suppose it's tough to relate.

Quick show of hands. Who has landed more than once at an uncontrolled airport with passengers when people in the pattern are not position reporting or responding to a single radio call?

*raises hand*

Furthermore, of those raising your hands, who has actually been admonished by the GA dummy for trying to talk to them directly while they are on the ground holding short of the opposite runway you are 500' to touch on? "It's an uncontrolled field I don't have to talk to anyone if I don't want to!"

*raises hand*

How many of you have so many experiences landing at non controlled fields with people who refuse to talk on the radio or use a traffic pattern you take a little offense to the notion a captain erring on the side of caution is a firing offense?

*raises hand*
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TUCKnTRUCK said:
Hmmm remember piper 77n in rkd? 4 leaf clover patters at 500 ft, no transponder, no radio calls, and no regard for anybody or anything else in the area?
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Yeah, and tcas didn't help with that dirt ball. My concern was the weekend warrior improptu airshow at RKD. Or the cub that wanted "to try and do a syncronized landing with you Colgan? I'll land on the grass next to the runway next to you." We had him on TCAS and could immediately judge which way to turn to get away from the bozo and allow him space to screw around on his own.

77n was a good symbol of the problem, but he isn't what worries me. It's the training that goes on and NO ONE is looking outside or talking on the radio getting in the way without even realizing it.

PS : I should add that the training is only one of my concerns, but that is the most common ones. There is a kalidascope (spelling blows) of problems I feel the TCAS is a magic bullet tool for turboprop operations at uncontrolled fields.
 
Good thing the Pinnacle and American planes had TCAS on them a few months back. MEM center control tried to plant them into each other. American was holding, and the control gave the Pinnacle flight a descent clearance right into the guy.
 
kellwolf said:
Good thing the Pinnacle and American planes had TCAS on them a few months back. MEM center control tried to plant them into each other. American was holding, and the control gave the Pinnacle flight a descent clearance right into the guy.
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I heard about that. Scary stuff. Glad to hear everyone was ok.
 
kellwolf said:
Good thing the Pinnacle and American planes had TCAS on them a few months back. MEM center control tried to plant them into each other. American was holding, and the control gave the Pinnacle flight a descent clearance right into the guy.
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Yes, but the controller also tried to give them a clearance in conflict with what the TCAS was telling them to do. Even MORE scary.

I like the post Doug made about civilian versus military mentality. Generalization, yes. Close to reality, you betcha. Personally, I try to fall somewhere in the middle. I want to get my passengers to their destination, safely and on time. If something breaks that would not make the flight unsafe, I'll do my best to find a way to legally allow us to depart without it. I have flown airplanes with the TCAS MELed. It just means you must be more vigilant for see and avoid.

I have only turned down two airplanes in my career. First time was when we were taking an airplane that could carry less fuel on a fairly long flight into forecast thunderstorms. Our AC Inverter was inoperative, therefore we had no windshear detection and no GPWS. We felt it was unsafe to take an airplane that would only permit us to carry minimum fuel reserves into an area of known thunderstorms without GPWS and windshear guidance. Little did we know we'd get a windshear alert in a microburst on final, only to do a go-around straight into a thunderstorm. We diverted and landed at our alternate with FAA required reserve fuel. If we had taken the previous airplane, we would have not had the windshear escape guidance, and we would have landed with 500 pounds of fuel. About 15 minutes of flying time.

The second time I declined an airplane is when we had a complete electrical system failure during pushback. The airplane did not transfer into "essential" power mode, but rather was in a mode I have never seen. It caused our electrically activated/hydraulically actuated spoilers to deploy. ALL of them. Imagine getting to 500 feet on takeoff and losing all instruments, and having flight/ground spoilers deploy? Maintenance was working on a fix, and I told them not to bother. We weren't flying that airplane.

The fact is, things break. Sometimes they can be consequential, and sometimes they are not. I cannot speak for this Captain, and I will not Monday-morning quarterback his decision. I will say, however, that I have flown airplanes with TCAS on MEL and felt completely safe, even going into Newark. Some of the scariest encounters I have had with other air traffic are gliders/ultralights/small single-engine props who do not have an operating transponder. TCAS is a great help, but it should not override see-and-avoid.

Whether the Captain was right or not in the Gulfstream example, he should never have been fired.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I'm sure TCAS is awesome, but if you can MEL it, it's legal to fly without it. Refusing a legal airplane seems like a pretty good reason for disciplinary action to me. Firing seems a little extreme.
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Never been an airline captain, huh?

You can defer a lot of things you shouldn't be able to. For example, in the SAAB, if the pressurization auto-controller hits the bed, you can manually pressurize the airplane via opening and closing the pneumatic outflow valve. The problem is, to have any other job while you babysit that thing is impossible...if you don't want your ears and all the passengers ears hurting. I think most SAAB drivers will agree.

Nosewheel steering. Deferable however in windy and icy conditions its at the CA's discretion. AKA- You better fly it.

And don't get me started on NEF's. (Non-Essential Furnishings)- At my airline we call it- Never Ever Fix.
 
ryanmickG said:
:yeahthat:

Really?? You're going to cancel a flight because you dont have TCAS??

Its pretty sad to get fired from a job you paid for in the first place.
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Careful with that. Tons of GIA pilots never paid for their training. GIA was hiring off the street for a very long time. Don't just assume a 'Streamer paid for his training.
 
SmitteyB said:
Never been an airline captain, huh?
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Nope. Flown plenty without TCAS at 250 below 10k, though. Haven't hit anything yet, or even come close. It's not like planes were just slamming in to each other and falling out of the sky on a regular basis prior to the advent of TCAS. Nice to have? I'm sure. Necessary for safety of flight? Uhm, man I hope not!
 
Climbing out of ATL one day down to somewhere in Florida we had an interesting TCAS event. The controller leveled us at 10k and told us to maintain best forward speed so he could get us clear of some traffic and continue our climb.

So, we're barreling along at about 340kias and all the while hearing the controller trying to give instructions to a Seminole to descend to no avail. Apparently, the guy was having difficulty understanding what the controller wanted him to do. Well, turns out that this guy was our traffic.

The controller told us to look out for him at 12 o'clock and a thousand feet above. Then we got the TA, quickly followed by the RA to "DESCEND DESCEND" with the red line going all the way to the bottom of the IVSI. I got the Seminole in sight at the same time the captain did. He pushed the nose down and almost stood that 757 on the left wingtip. According to the TCAS the Seminole was 300 feet above us.

It turns out that the Seminole pilot finally figured out that ATC wanted a descent. Problem was that it was many minutes too late and about six other instructions behind. The captain and I agreed that had we not have had TCAS that there would have been a lot of metal raining down on Spalding County.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Wow, never come close hu? Sure of that are you?

Obviously you have xray vision.
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Nope on that also. Just a fair block of time barreling around at high speed and low altitude in congested airspace with no TCAS and no swapped paint. Just like all the dudes who flew for decades without TCAS.
 
MikeD said:
Lol....funny you mention 340, as that was the initial climb schedule for the 117.....340 until .75M then hold that. (just seemed odd mentioning 340, vice something round like 350) :D
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Bunch of slowpokes in the 117, eh?

That's practically my *gear* speed in the Eagle. :)
 
FlyChicaga said:
Whether the Captain was right or not in the Gulfstream example, he should never have been fired.
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That is his call . . .period!
When you start with multiple MEL's then add low vis and tired pilots it can come down to a judgement call. This captain may have just had an event that made him less safe in this situation than even three hours earlier. Maybe after flying with the FO all day he realized that he needed that equipment because he was filling up more of the cockpit than normal.

You need to be able to explain your decision, but in no way should a company create a chilling effect on their captain's ability to make that call. That IS the job.
 
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