Scope Bribe

[Zapphod Beblebrox]

APA just got the comprehensive offer from the company. It's an immediate raise and good money. Group II narrow body aircraft would be:


212.93 2014
219.32 1/1/15
225.90 1/1/16
232.68 1/1/17
239.66 1/1/18
246.85 1/1/19


Kirby wrote a letter saying he was pulling the 76-81 5 seat proposal off the table. Then you see the proposal and it says increase 65 seat limitation to 70. And damn if there those 5 seats are. But when you compare the details of Sec 1.D.4.c of the MTA and actually read it I think it becomes more than a five seat grab. According to the Contract Comparison both Delta and UAL have 50 seats or less built into their SCOPE Clause. Ours would now read 30-70 seats allowing Kirby to have nothing smaller than 70 seats and get around the 40% restriction on large RJs.

Here are some numbers I pulled off the Contract Comparison for 2016:

Delta: 125 50< UAL: 125 50< AA 239 30-70
102 51-70 102 51-70 ----
223 71-76 223 71-76 272 71-76
Total: 450 450 511

Because Delta and UAL have a 50 seat or less column we would have the ability to operate over twice the number of 70 seaters and about 50 more 76 seaters. Plus we already grandfathered some AW Express CRJ-900s somewhere and I dont know where they are in the mix. As I read this it basically comes down to unlimited 70 seaters while Delta and UAL are still tied to a fixed number of 50 seaters. Basically a reworking of the 2000 TA.

P.S. I am sorry about the formatting of that table above. It came sort of messed up when I got it. There will be a good table out soon. The gist of it is that the company has dropped the 81 seat ask but upped the lower seat number ask as a form of scope relief. My bet is they are betting on lower oil prices for the next few years which makes the lower seat number work. This is a scope bribe!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Unless oil drops another 30%, it really doesn't matter. The 70 seaters still aren't profitable at current oil prices.

 

[AAPalmTree]

NO VOTE HERE!!!!!

 

[L-16B]

NO VOTE HERE!!!!!

Don't think it will.be a vote. It will be a cost neutral arbitration with the current scope

 

[learhawkerbe400]

What a joke.

 

[L-16B]

Also important to note that even if they go to arbitration they can negotiate the whole time up to arbitration. So it's essentially another deadline. We would lose out on the December 1 snapback, however. Not a big deal though.

 

[L-16B]

Unless oil drops another 30%, it really doesn't matter. The 70 seaters still aren't profitable at current oil prices.

In that case shouldn't it be easier for the company to give in to the pilots demands on the status quo scope?

 

[unclassified]

You aint getting more money at mainline without relaxing scope. Face it.

 

[L-16B]

You aint getting more money at mainline without relaxing scope. Face it.

Huh?

 

[learhawkerbe400]

You aint getting more money at mainline without relaxing scope. Face it.

This clown says so so it must be true.

 

[motormadness24]

This clown says so so it must be true.

I'm rather new to 121, but please enlighten me a time in the past 15-20 years where a major mainline carrier did not give out raises to their pilot group in exchange for scope relaxation? I've tried to follow the history of these deals and honestly, I've yet to come across a time it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Maurus]

I'm rather new to 121, but please enlighten me a time in the past 15-20 years where a major mainline carrier did not give out raises to their pilot group in exchange for scope relaxation? I've tried to follow the history of these deals and honestly, I've yet to come across a time it hasn't happened yet.

Delta's contract reduced the amount of pilots working their regional feed all the while increasing the amount of narrow body aircraft on property.

 

[motormadness24]

Delta's contract reduced the amount of pilots working their regional feed all the while increasing the amount of narrow body aircraft on property.

But didn't they increase the amount of larger RJ's?

 

[L-16B]

But didn't they increase the amount of larger RJ's?

Yes. People will argue both sides.

 

[Maurus]

But didn't they increase the amount of larger RJ's?

Yup. ALPA seems to call this a win but IMO the 50 seaters would have been forced to shrink away regardless. It would have been a slower process but the outcome would be similar as mainline would have had to pick up the flying with new narrow bodies anyway.

 

[motormadness24]

Yup. ALPA seems to call this a win but IMO the 50 seaters would have been forced to shrink away regardless. It would have been a slower process but the outcome would be similar as mainline would have had to pick up the flying with new narrow bodies anyway.

Of course ALPA thinks it was a win. They like to take things that were going to happen regardless and make it look like they accomplished something huge. They did the exact same thing at L-XJT recently. They got the company to agree to pay all captains regular pay instead of having a small group of 135 captain pay, which is entirely beyond their capability to keep up with. They turn around and say, "Hey look at us? This is such a HUGE win for our pilot group!" When in reality, the company hardly cared, the 135's are being parked by January anyway and it makes things easier for payroll. But hey, ALPA did something awesome right?

 

[propsync]

When you give away scope it becomes the new industry standard. There is no way to take it back. You are far better off allowing an increase in the number of 76 seat jets than you are allowing a lesser number of jets to go 81 seats.

You see where this is all heading right? One day the major airlines will simply be marketing and ticket sales companies. They'll offer contracts for bid by carriers like Republic and others to do there large airplane flying. Whoever bids the cheapest will do the flying. As it stands right now without any scope changes, I predict by 2020 65% of all airline flying in the domestic US will be flown by regional airlines.

Clearly though, pilots do enrichen themselves by voting to sell scope. These same pilots will one day be retired and no longer an expense of any kind to the company. The company makes a short term investment knowing the dividends down the road.

 

[elmetal]

When you give away scope it becomes the new industry standard. There is no way to take it back. You are far better off allowing an increase in the number of 76 seat jet than you are allowing a lesser number of jets to go 81 seats.

You see where this is all heading right? One day the major airlines will simply be marketing and ticket sales companies. They'll offer contracts for bid by carriers like Republic and others to do there large airplane flying. Whoever bids the cheapest will do the flying. As it stands right now without any scope changes, I predict by 2020 65% of all airline flying in the domestic US will be flown by regional airlines.

Clearly though, pilots do enrichen themselves by voting to sell scope.

I believe that number is already over 50%. It'll hit 65% before 2020 for sure.

Anyone who thinks mainline will take flying back is delusional IMO

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

DL took back a lot of flying this previous summer because PNCL and RAH couldn't staff properly.

That said, I really hope this doesn't pass.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

In that case shouldn't it be easier for the company to give in to the pilots demands on the status quo scope?

You have to remember that when dealing with Type A personalities (which is what people on both sides of the table are in pilot labor negotiations), there are two types of gains that matter:

1. Actual, tangible gains that mean real money; or

2. Ego gratification to soften the blow of giving something else up.

If management has to give up money, and they do in today's bargaining environment, then they want a few things of little to no consequence to put in the "win" column to take back to their troops, the board, and the shareholders to make it look like they didn't just cave on everything. It helps them save face, which is very important to a Type A manager. They'll simply dig in their heels and refuse to talk if you won't let them save face somehow. And frankly, pilots are no different.

So, you give them something that really means nothing, they get to lie to the shareholders and to middle management about how it was actually a win for them, and you get what you really wanted all along.

Welcome to the real world of bargaining, as opposed to the STW fantasy world where you just bang your fist on the table and suddenly management starts throwing money at you.