scenario about hours, insurance, and employment

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
so a friend of mine started working for company X.

company X advertised they wanted 500TT for insurance requirements.

friend of mine said "yeah ive got that"... fluffed an insurance form... and got hired.

company never once looked at his logbook, medical, or even pilots license! (totally serious!)

now he has well over 500TT.


how do you guys feel about this, who is potentially 'at risk' here, and what consequences could come of it? sounds sketchy, but my friend is inclined to think "well, the company hired me, so if anyone is in trouble its them for hiring me without verifying any documents".... thoughts?
 

JDE

Well-Known Member
Both are at risk - assuming something happens. The company because they didn't verify your friends information and your friend because he lied on the form. I'd probably fire the guy, but since they didn't even look at his information from the beginning, the company is pretty dumb.
 

moxiepilot

Well-Known Member
How do I feel about this?

Your friend's a jerk.

He's the type of guy who thinks he's better than he is with all the arrogance to go with it.
He's the guy who affects other people with only thinking of himself.
In summary, he's a d-bag
 

Boris Badenov

It's a work in progress, but, ah, symbols endure
I don't condone it, but more to the point, if I were your friend I wouldn't be telling anyone about it. Especially not the internet.
 

Michael95U

Well-Known Member
so a friend of mine started working for company X.

company X advertised they wanted 500TT for insurance requirements.

friend of mine said "yeah ive got that"... fluffed an insurance form... and got hired.

company never once looked at his logbook, medical, or even pilots license! (totally serious!)

now he has well over 500TT.


how do you guys feel about this, who is potentially 'at risk' here, and what consequences could come of it? sounds sketchy, but my friend is inclined to think "well, the company hired me, so if anyone is in trouble its them for hiring me without verifying any documents".... thoughts?
That is called fraud. Had there been an accident and the FAA and the insurance company become involved in an investigation, your buddy AND the company would be in big trouble.

Michael
 

Barty

Well-Known Member
The way insurance companies are these days, it could STILL come up.

Imagine this scenario. Your buddy has to make a wheels up or one wheel landing due to a malfunction. Insurance company comes in and looks at your buddy's log book AND the company records as to how much he's been flying. "Hey, according to the application you put in with us, you had 514 hours when you started, but your logbook says you have 650 now. Your company's records say you've got 180 hours with them and there's no other time logged here outside of your employer's aircraft."

He'd have some serious explaining to do and a pink slip at the end of the day might be the worst of his worries if the insurance company ends up denying the claim because of a fraudulent application.
 

Michael95U

Well-Known Member
The way insurance companies are these days, it could STILL come up.

Imagine this scenario. Your buddy has to make a wheels up or one wheel landing due to a malfunction. Insurance company comes in and looks at your buddy's log book AND the company records as to how much he's been flying. "Hey, according to the application you put in with us, you had 514 hours when you started, but your logbook says you have 650 now. Your company's records say you've got 180 hours with them and there's no other time logged here outside of your employer's aircraft."

He'd have some serious explaining to do and a pink slip at the end of the day might be the worst of his worries if the insurance company ends up denying the claim because of a fraudulent application.
Exactly.

The only way to prevent that all from happening is to have the friend quit/resign right now. Otherwise, the company is at considerable risk.
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
That is called fraud. Had there been an accident and the FAA and the insurance company become involved in an investigation, your buddy AND the company would be in big trouble.

Michael
The FAA wouldn't be able to do anything about it, as you aren't falsifying a government document. Also, I don't know if it would be considered fraud, either. Unethical? Of course. Illegal? Not really sure.

This happens quite a bit in the corporate world. Some employers even encourage you to do it to get hired.
 

JDE

Well-Known Member
The FAA wouldn't be able to do anything about it, as you aren't falsifying a government document. Also, I don't know if it would be considered fraud, either. Unethical? Of course. Illegal? Not really sure.

This happens quite a bit in the corporate world. Some employers even encourage you to do it to get hired.
"Any person who, knowingly or with intent to defraud or to facilitate a fraud against any insurance company or any person, submits an application or files a claim for insurance containing false, deceptive, or misleading information may be found of insurance fraud"

That's right above the dotted line on our insurance forms. Depending on the state this person is in, he may be subject to other penalties as well. So yes, it is fraud and it's illegal. And you can certainly bet your ass that the insurance company will NOT pay anything if the pilot has been found to have knowingly submitted false information.

And I don't know how much it actually happens in the corporate world. With the large dollar amounts at "risk", any reputable corporate operator wouldn't try to fraud the insurance company. We have the ability to negotiate with the insurance companies to get lower time pilots on the insurance - that's what they did with me.
 

Michael95U

Well-Known Member
The FAA wouldn't be able to do anything about it, as you aren't falsifying a government document. Also, I don't know if it would be considered fraud, either. Unethical? Of course. Illegal? Not really sure.

This happens quite a bit in the corporate world. Some employers even encourage you to do it to get hired.
Definition:

In criminal law, fraud is the crime or offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them – usually, to obtain property or services unjustly.

Seems like this guys fits this definition.
 

Michael95U

Well-Known Member
The FAA wouldn't be able to do anything about it, as you aren't falsifying a government document. Also, I don't know if it would be considered fraud, either. Unethical? Of course. Illegal? Not really sure.

This happens quite a bit in the corporate world. Some employers even encourage you to do it to get hired.
The FAA sure as heck would go through his logbook and ALL of his records with a fine toothed comb. I am sure they find that he wasn't night current or instrument current or etc etc. Then he has to deal with the FAA, the insurance company, and the legal system. Sure, the FAA is the least of his worries, but they are still going to go after him.
 

ILS37R

Well-Known Member
Is your friend locked into any sort of training bond or employment contract? If not--maybe even if so--he needs to resign and find a new job, pronto. As it stands, a very unpleasant meeting with insurance lawyers is in his future. Even if he doesn't gear-up, a claim elsewhere in company might trigger an insurance audit that would snag him.

Also, slap your friend next time you see him. It's this sort of crap the causes insurance rates and experience minimums to go up for the rest of us.
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
yeah i was kinda 'unimpressed' also when i found out this was going on...AND he's had no less than two engine failures in these rickety planes and he has only been there 3-4 months.

shady operation all around no doubt!
 

MikeFavinger

Hubschrauber Flieger
I take it this isn't the same buddy who landed a helicopter where he wasn't supposed to? You sure know a bunch of d-bags, brother. If I were you I'd distance myself fom them quickly. You don't need your integrity questioned as well.

And that's what this is - an integrity issue. A no brainer, really. Good people don't lie about their times.
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
I take it this isn't the same buddy who landed a helicopter where he wasn't supposed to? You sure know a bunch of d-bags, brother. If I were you I'd distance myself fom them quickly. You don't need your integrity questioned as well.

And that's what this is - an integrity issue. A no brainer, really. Good people don't lie about their times.

well, youll notice im not packing my bags to go fly broken planes with a fake logbook ;-)

and no its not the helicopter guy.

and i know lots of people of ALL sorts. d-bags, dorks, pimps playas hustlas....
 

splash

your social justice comic center
The FAA wouldn't be able to do anything about it, as you aren't falsifying a government document. Also, I don't know if it would be considered fraud, either. Unethical? Of course. Illegal? Not really sure.

This happens quite a bit in the corporate world. Some employers even encourage you to do it to get hired.
:yeahthat:


WHAT IS A LOG BOOK? Are you not considered a pilot with out one? Are we required to show anyone our log book by law? This is personal documentation of our flying history. It is a bunch of numbers. I would really like to know more in dept about aircraft insurance and how it uses these numbers for risk. Can anyone compare it to auto insurance? Lets go drive around the block for 300 hours; I need the experience for this pizza delivery job. Does a company or person pay more in insurance by the amount of time they fly per week or month? The more you operate the more risk is involved, right?

:D There are endless miles of emergency landing spots in TX! Aircraft insurance should be real cheap there and shouldn't worry about the amount of time any pilot has after his commercial ticket!

This thread reminds me of the movie Catch me if you can. I don't feel like this guy has cheated me in any way only out smarted me and he has bigger door knockers (no pun intended) than me.
 

Screaming_Emu

Joe Conventional
I take it this isn't the same buddy who landed a helicopter where he wasn't supposed to? You sure know a bunch of d-bags, brother. If I were you I'd distance myself fom them quickly. You don't need your integrity questioned as well.

And that's what this is - an integrity issue. A no brainer, really. Good people don't lie about their times.
I was looking forward to coming up with a response, but Ian summed it up better than I ever could. so :yeahthat:
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
Hi, a somewhat expert opinion from someone who was an insurance (property and casualty) underwriter prior to becoming a professional pilot:

This is called material misrepresentation and is grounds for cancelling a policy and or denying a claim on any insurance policy I've ever read. What that means is that you're misrepresenting a material fact. A material fact is something that directly results in an underwriting decision, IE if you told the truth the insurance company may not have offered you the policy or may have charged you a different premium.

The FAA would not go after him so long as he is qualified and legal to fly the airplane, regardless of how much time he told his employeer he had. In the FAA's eyes he is a commercial pilot, flying a commercial mission, qualified to fly the airplane and current, stop.

You're talking about a serious liability exposure to the company and to him personally though. Not to mention its unethical.

The ability of a company to cancel a policy or deny a claim for material misrepresentation is based generally on state law. Most states say that in order to deny a claim or a cancel a policy for material misrepresentation the insured must have made an intentional mis-statement of a fact that if fully (and truthfully) disclosed would have led to a refusal by the company to issue the policy, on the terms of the policy (IE at that premium and level of coverage.)
 
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