Scary flight today

[jtrain609]

chperplt,


I don't mean to drag this out, and I don't mean to flame anyone; but have you flown a complex aircraft before? More specifically, have you flown a Piper Arrow? From the sounds of things, you don't understand the system very well if you don't know what to call the light. They are two different lights, that do two different things. In Piper Arrow's that are from 1976 onward they have one light, and in '75 back they have two lights.

The gear unsafe light means exactly that, the gear is not safe in a safe position. The translit light means something else, that being that the gear is moving from down to up. What it really means in Piper's is that the hydraulic pump is turned on. It's only going to be on when the gear is moving, and if the pump is on when you're not moving the gear it means that the system is trying to re-pressurize itself.

And what you're saying is that I don't know what I'm talking about because I have about 200 hours of flight time, 30 of those being in Arrow's and after going through an aircraft systems class at Western Michigan University? Good call dude. Now given I don't have a lot of flight time, but I do have at least a basic understanding of the system's that are in the plane that Bluestreak was flying.

Cheers


John Herreshoff

 

[FL270]

John, if I'm not mistaken chperplt is an ATP and flies for a regional airline.

Seems like you guys are mostly at odds about how to say the same thing ... should he have said "you dope" or whatever? Probably not. Point is, the original poster had an emergency, got down safely, and several other people (including you, me, and chperplt) have offered their perspectives in the hope that everybody here could learn from them.

My $0.02 ...

FL270

 

[Mr_Creepy]

LOL ok let's all take a step back and breathe!

Nice cockpit pics John H. You can find one more at www.capflying.com - which has the 2 arrows I fly. There is a cockpit pic of N39535, low tail II which has the single red light. This was changed in the II model I believe and all subsequent models. It was decided that an iluminated "in transit" light is also an unsafe condition so the separate bulb for the power pack was done away with

Just be careful out there guys, safety doesn't look out for itself!

 

[jtrain609]

And I'm all about discussion on this, but I also don't think it's proper to disreguard someone that does have an understanding of the systems involved in the given situation simply because of a lack of hours. Alternatives to how situations worked out is the way to go, but at the same time I don't think Bluestreak did very much wrong.

The idea I get is that people have gone off in some direction with how things could have worked out, someone took that as how things did happen to Bluestreak (with the gear unsafe light that was not on) and blew it out of proportion. A gear problem is a serious situation, but it might not have been as serious as some people are making it out to be here. We don't even know exactly what happened, and all we seem to be doing is speculating here and yelling at each other for the possibly of another situation happening.

With that, let's get some things straight: there was no gear unsafe light. That was John Tenny that said that.

We don't know what happened to the gear. It could be as simple as a wire being severed.

The gear in transit light simply means the pump is turned on in a power pack in Piper's. That's all it means. I've had it come on mid flight before. It was not an emergency. The system lost pressure, and had to pump itself back up again.

That's all we have to work with here. Presented with the above situation I don't believe that CFR needs to be rolled because of a light not coming on. Now given, it's an important light; but all the procautions that were perscribed by the POH were done. That SHOULD put the gear into a down and locked position, negating an emergency situation.

Cheers


John Herreshoff

 

[jtrain609]

...alright I think there's a problem here. Does everyone agree that an intransit light means that the power packed is turned on and not much else? That's what my professor here at Western told me, and that's how I understand the system. Is there some disagreement about that?

 

[aloft]

Yeah, chperplt is a B1900 captain for Colgan.

 

[rausda27]

Aloft..your avatar..hilarious...

 

[Mr_Creepy]

[ QUOTE ]
With that, let's get some things straight: there was no gear unsafe light. That was John Tenny that said that.


[/ QUOTE ]

John H. I can't find where I said this in this thread. I mentioned that only having a green bulb out (implying no gear unsafe indication) might be justification to proceed to taxi. Is that what you meant?

At any rate I am not talking about systems here, but safety procedure. If you have reason to believe your gear is unsafe for any reason, or your airplane is unsafe for that matter, then continuing to operate it when you have the option to stop is a violation!

FAA calls it "continuing operation with a known unsafe condition."

[7500]
Let's go on a different topic. The other day I grounded an airplane (an arrow!) because when I tested the flight controls by doing "the box" (ask your instructor what the box is - he/she better know!) when the yoke was all the way to the right I felt a slight "catch" when moving the elevator from full front to full back. I was told I was being really picky by the mechanic. I told him that if I were to proceed it would be a violation. Any comments?
[/7500]

 

[aloft]

Thanks!

 

[jtrain609]

AH! My mistake, it was cime_sp that I grabbed this from:

"The gear unsafe light on the Piper Arrow/Seminole will illuminate any time you don't have all three green lights."

With that statement, the gear will be down and locked even if you don't have a three green indication correct? With that, potential emergency situation averted.

John you seem to be really worried about violations.

I've also grounded planes that I didn't think were safe. I got into one plane and it didn't have a checklist, the radio's didn't work and the seat wouldn't adjust. I jumped out of the thing like it was on fire, went back to the FBO office and asked them how in the heck they expected to rent an unairworthy aircraft to me.

Cheers


John Herreshoff

 

[Mr_Creepy]

Yes I am worried about three things (besides safety) in a new pilot's aviation career:

Accidents, Incidents, Violations (or DUIs but I don't worry about those personally.) Any one of those and your career is in danger.

I have an incident on my record and it was given to me as my "reason for not hiring" at the following:

Delta (although they had just stopped hiring)
jetBlue (extreme competition from those with clean records)
Southwest (same as jetBlue)
Piedmont (disqualified based on incident)
Citation Shares (stopped talking to me right in the middle of the interview as soon as they found out)
Midway (although they didn't find out till after I was hired - another story!)
American
Exec Jet returned my application "Incident disqualifies you"
American TransAir said I was "ineligible for interview with an incident"
United just plain never called!

On the other hand, these airlines have a habit of hiring pilots with incidents, accidents, violations and DUIs because they think pilots will not be hired away "to a Major:"

American Eagle
Mesa
Gulfstream
Chautauqua

 

[BlueStreak]

Wow. I haven't been on the computer all day, then come to find out that my post has literally blown up

Take it easy out there. I don't have a problem with anyone on this board and I feel that everyone has great advice to offer, whether they are aspiring pilots or space shuttle drivers. I put this post out there to share an experience, and offer insight to others who have never been in these situations. It kind of lets you think about how you would've handled it, and that's exactly what many are talking about. Sounds like a goal accomplished. I've learned a lot from these posts and I am sure that others have done the same. I am always open to any advice that others have to give. The whole industry thrives on the advice that is passed down from those who've been there before and don't want others to make the same mistakes. Nobody out there is invincible and that's why we have to keep our heads in the game. We have to keep on reading the books, keep on listening to others, and keep on purusing what we love. I talk to professional pilots on a daily basis and that is definately a message I hear often. Everyone comes from a different walk of life and has taken a different path, that's what makes these boards so great.

Thanks to all for the great replies. As soon as I can find out what the mechanics had to say, I'll let you know.

 

[EatSleepFly]

[ QUOTE ]
With that statement, the gear will be down and locked even if you don't have a three green indication correct? With that, potential emergency situation averted.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what you're trying to say here, but if you don't get three green, its an emergency- no question about it. I don't care if I felt three thumps after pulling the emergency extension- if I don't get three in the green, the emergency stays.

 

[SUSPilot]

My family owns a 74 Arrow II, which I have around 250 hours in. In the Arrow and the Arrow II there are six gear system lights. An flashing amber Auto Ext Off above the three green lights representing down and locked landing gear. This light will illuminate and flash any time that the auto extension system is turned off. A green indicator light for each gear, will turn on when the gear are in the down and locked position. The lights that are in question are the Amber Gear in Transit light at the top of the panel, which goes on any time that the hydraulic pump is turned on. The last light is the Red Gear Unsafe light. This light will illuminate in four situationswhen the manifold pressure drops below around 14 to 15 inches and the gear are in the up position, if the auto extension system drops the landing gear and the switch is in the up postion, if the gear handle is raised while the airplane is sitting on the squat switch, or as in this case the hydraulic pump turns off and the gear are not in the position required for the position of the gear handle. The pump is designed to turn off after 30 to 60 seconds of contiuous operation. If the pressure in the hydraulic lines drops below what is required to hold the gear up, which I believe is 1500 psi the pump will turn on and you will get the gear in transit light. If pressure drops below 1200psi(again not completly sure of the exact numbers) the gear will drop. The arrow III is the first one with only one light for both gear unsafe and gear in transition.

 

[tonyw]

Way to get that bird on the ground safely.

Better now?

 

[EatSleepFly]

Scroll up.

 

[jtrain609]

HA!

 

[tonyw]

[ QUOTE ]
head on down the road to the nearest towered, CFR-equipped airport if your emergency allows you the time to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this as the best course of action. But I am a cover my butt just in case kind of guy so your mileage may vary. Plus, if the [expletive] really hit the fan, I'd want to be at an airport where they have the people and equipment there on site to take care of the problem.

And it'd be the only way I could land at DCA these days!

 

[ready2fly]

[ QUOTE ]
Aloft..your avatar..hilarious

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay.. what the heck am I missing? I see the same "Aloft in front of store" avatar that he's had for quite some time.