Scary flight today

[lilrkt]

Keep in mind as well that at many uncontrolled airports, if you have someone call in the emergency crews, you will have to pay several hundred dollars for them to come out. If there is truely an emergency then insurance will probably pick it up, but if not you will be stuck with that bill. Judgement call. I believe that the way you landed, even if the front gear did collapse, it would hurt nothing but the prop, engine and front end. You are going too slow at that point to roll if you stay on the runway. CHances are that even if you slid off, you would just come to a stop. I would have cut the engine though. THere was no opportunity for a go around at that point, you should at least try to save the engine.

 

[cime_sp]

Was there any opportunity to land at another airport that was controlled with emergency crews on the field?....that might have been a better option considering you had enough fuel

 

[chperplt]

Don't be a dope... Declare a frikin emergency for crying out loud. You landed an aircraft in an unsafe situation. You had a gear in-transit warning light on, as well as a nose gear down and locked indication NOT on. If that doesn't equal an emergency, I don't know what does.

This board is frequented by an awful lot of low time pilots. If you plan on making aviation a career, you have to understand that not only do you need to be concerned with your safety, but you also have to be concerned with something called liability.

If that nose gear would have collapsed during the rollout, or even as you were exiting the runway, you would have been posting about how to get a job with a violation on your records.. Both you and the IP would both have been violated.

Who cares if you tie up a runway while an A&P checks the gear. It's a lot easier to close an airport for an hour or two then to explain to the airplane owner and FAA why your lack of good judgment caused damage to an airplane.

You both did a good job getting the airplane on the ground safely, but you both demonstrated poor judgement at the same time.

 

[chperplt]

[ QUOTE ]
if you have someone call in the emergency crews, you will have to pay several hundred dollars for them to come out. If there is truely an emergency then insurance will probably pick it up, but if not you will be stuck with that bill. Judgement call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a joke, right?? You're going to risk the lives of everyone on the aircraft and possible people on the ground, because you're afraid of getting stuck with a bill?

I'm going to read about you some day...

 

[jtrain609]

I think a few of ya'll need to lay off a little bit. I have been in a very similar situation before and I put the plane down without a problem. I got a gear in transit warning on a descent once when I didn't put the gear down. I discussed it with the FBO on the unicom, they said it was probably the auto gear system doing something (turned out not to be the case). When I put the gear down, I got 3 green. It's impossible to get three green when the gear is unsafe as I understand it. If you know a way to do it in a Piper Arrow, please enlighten us.

With that, let me explain what probably happened here: the gear in transit light comes on in Pipers whenever the power pack pump is turned on. That can happen when the gear is being cycled or if there is a lack of pressure in the lines. The default position for the landing gear on a Piper Arrow is DOWN AND LOCKED. It IS IMPOSSIBLE to get the gear STUCK IN THE UP POSITION. Even if the entire system fails, the gear will simply fall due to gravity.

There are a few other details here that ya'll are missing. Like Bluestreak knows all this because we went through the same aviation systems class and learned it in there. He knows the systems well enough to know that it's impossible to get the gear stuck up. If you go through the procedures and manually drop the gear (releasing all the pressure in the lines) and do the manuvers that the POH suggests, the gear will lock in. Piper designed the gear in the Arrow so well that a complete failure of the system should really be a non event.

Which is what Bluestreak turned it into.

Lay off the dude and say job well done.

Cheers


John Herreshoff

 

[cime_sp]

John,

The gear unsafe light has nothing to do with the power pack. It comes on any time all three down-and-lock limit switches are not closed....and the up limit switches are not either. You can definately get some kind of partial gear extension. Just because Piper designed the gear to freefall doesn't always mean it will. There could be something blocking full extension...or the J-hooks might not engage. For whatever the reason he definately could have had a gear problem.

We all think he did a great job getting the plane down safely. What we are debating are possible things that he, his instructor, and us can do to make things as safe as possible in the case of a systems failure in the future.

Nothin wrong with a good debate is there?

 

[FL270]

Agreed ... I give kudos to the guys for getting it down safely, but I think part of the point of posting the story is for a little critique. It's just like every time I go to recurrent, I walk out of the simulator thinking about a dozen things I should have done differently ... not that I didn't perform to the required standards in the box, but you should always be looking to improve your abilities ... PARTICULARLY in the area of decision-making, which if you look at accident reports, is often a weak link in the accident chain. None of us will ever be perfect, but we should all strive to learn from our own mistakes, learn from the mistakes of others, and always be driven to "do it better" ...

FL270

 

[C650CPT]

I couldn't have said it better ... or could I have? Nope ... I agree with chperplt, Getting it down made you a hero, but if the gear would have collapsed on taxi you would have been a goat. It comes down to experience, not just aviation experience but life's experience. Chperplt is offering up some sound life experience and I suppose that makes some feel uneasy or like he is picking on these guys, that is not ( I believe ) his intent. This is a tough business where you will be second guessed the rest of your careers, you all need to take it for what its worth. John H you can't say to back off because this is exactly what makes this board so good, experienced pilots willing to share what they know to those who don't know. It should be welcomed dialect.

 

[jtrain609]

C650,


You are very correct, good dialect is exactly what we need here. We do not need:

"Don't be a dope... Declare a frikin emergency for crying out loud."

To quote chperplt.

Don't be a dope? I didn't take what he had to say too seriously after that one. What happened to civility in trying to discuss an issue?

Cheers


John Herreshoff

 

[jtrain609]

Furthermore there was no gear unsafe indication. That was something that John Tenney mentioned. The gear in translit light was on, which IS NOT the gear unsafe light if I remember how an Arrow is setup (though it's been a while since I've been in one).

That is what leads me to believe that there is a lead in the hyroloic (sp) lines somewhere and that the power pack is trying to fix that lack of pressure. Bluestreak mentioned nothing about the gear unsafe light.

Cheers


John Herreshoff

 

[EatSleepFly]

[ QUOTE ]
The gear in translit light was on, which IS NOT the gear unsafe light if I remember how an Arrow is setup (though it's been a while since I've been in one).


[/ QUOTE ]

There is no seperate "Gear in-transit light" in the Arrow.

The Gear Unsafe light comes on when the gear is in transit. It also comes on when all three are not down and locked. The Arrow/Seminole has both a down-lock and an up-limit switch on each gear. You'll get the light if there is not contact on all three of them depending on the position of the gear switch. If the switch is selected up, and all three are not contacting the up-limit switches, you'll get the gear unsafe light. If the switch is selected down, and there is not contact on all three down-lock switches, you'll get the gear unsafe light again, and the appropriate green light will not be illuminated.

To my knowledge, operation of the hydraulic power-pack will not illuminate the gear-unsafe light in the Arrow/Seminole. Seeing unaccounted-for spikes on the ammeter while the gear is up is a way to determine a potential problem with the hydrualic system in an Arrow, as it indicates that the pump may be operating to keep pressure in the system.

 

[C650CPT]

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore there was no gear unsafe indication. That was something that John Tenney mentioned. The gear in translit light was on, which IS NOT the gear unsafe light if I remember how an Arrow is setup (though it's been a while since I've been in one).

That is what leads me to believe that there is a lead in the hyroloic (sp) lines somewhere and that the power pack is trying to fix that lack of pressure. Bluestreak mentioned nothing about the gear unsafe light.

Cheers


John Herreshoff

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how the Arrow is set up but every other airplane I've flown an illuminated in transit light (red light in the handle or on the gear control panel ) other during extension or retraction means an Un Safe Gear. The Hydraulics would be indicated with a hydraulic light. But this doesn't matter, it was considered unsafe by the fact that they didn't have a green light ( if I remember correctly ).
I agree civility should be the standard, but I also know that personality plays a vital role on this board.

 

[jtrain609]

The Arrow I've flown is setup differently than how C650 and ESF describe. It could be because it was an older Arrow of the 180 HP varity.

The way that Arrow was setup was with two lights. One was an orange "Gear in Transit" light, and the other a red "Gear unsafe" light.

EDIT: Managed to find a picture of a similar vintage Arrow to the one that I fly.

You can see where the orange and red lights are two different lights.

You can see the same lights in this picture, which is a panel shot of a 1975 Piper Arrow II that is the same model that Bluestreak was flying (you wouldn't think I would go on and on about this if I didn't know exactly what plane he was flying, would you?)

Now we can look at a newer Arrow without both those lights...

So, if the gear in transit light was on and the gear unsafe light was NOT on, the power pack was simply turned on.

Ya'll learned how to fly in Pipers that are too new

Cheers


John Herreshoff

 

[EatSleepFly]

Oh, OK. I've never flown an older 180 HP Arrow, or one with the auto gear extension enabled, for that matter...so that might change things.

 

[lilrkt]

Ok, I will try to not be offended by your "Don't be a dope... Declare a frikin emergency for crying out loud." comment, which by the way makes you sound like an ass not me. You are right there are a lot of low time pilots on here. I am one of them with around 250 hours, but that doesn't make me an idiot. I know what a prop breaking off can do. I know that there is the possibility of a roll over any time you are not landing correctly. I also know the ramifications of having an incident on your record. If you disagree, then simply do that. There is never call for a personal attack.

That being said, somewhere in there you may have a point, if the person's goal is to be an airline pilot then I guess it would be better to err on the safe side and declare the emergency.

If you are at an uncontrolled field, though, who do you declare the emergency to? If there is noone there to hear you, it is not going to do a whole lot of good. This does not apply in this situation, but can at an airport in G airspace. If you had time and a usable cell phone, I guess you could try 911 to get the local crews rolling, but I don't see another option.

 

[FL270]

At the non-towered airport where I did my instructing, the CFR truck was manned by the line guys at the FBO. All I'd have had to do was call on the unicom and ask them to have the truck standing by, and they would have. At the non-towered field where I currently fly corporate, there is a CFR on the field ... call unicom, the FBO calls CFR (if they don't monitor the CTAF themselves, which they might) and the trucks are out. As for who to declare to, call the controlling agency for the airspace you're in ... approach control, ARTCC, etc. If you feel you need CFR service, go somewhere (Class B/C/D etc) that will have the trucks there and ready ASAP, especially if your emergency is something like a gear, which doesn't have the "get it on the deck now" connotation that some other emergencies would. Always remember, when you declare an emergency, all bets are off ... everybody will get out of the way for you. And with a gear emergency, if the gear holds on touchdown, always stop and shutdown the aircraft straight ahead, evacuate, and have mx come pin the gear and tow the aircraft to the shop. Whether or not the guy behind you has to divert or use the shorter runway is a non-issue when you're an aircraft in distress.

FL270

 

[jtrain609]

Crash fire rescue trucks? They don't exist at my field. You'd have to call the local fire department, and you would be charged.

Cheers


John Herreshoff

 

[FL270]

John ... the locals probably also wouldn't know crap about aircraft crash/fire/rescue anyway ... head on down the road to the nearest towered, CFR-equipped airport if your emergency allows you the time to do so. If you don't have the luxury of picking the most suitable airport (you're on fire or engine(s) TU for example), paying the fireman's bill should be the absolute LAST consideration on your mind. Take care of yourself, your passengers, and your aircraft, and to hell with everybody else ... if Jethro Fireman misses his dinner, I don't give a rat's rear end about it.

FL270

 

[chperplt]

I'm sorry to all that were offended by my comments. I was trying to make a point which obviously escapes some of you.

I don't care what you want to call the light.. It could be an intransit light or an unsafe light.. If the gear isn't down, it's an unsafe situation.

If John wants to ignore the rest of my post because he disagrees with my advice, that's his choice. For the rest of you aspiring professional pilots, please take what the more experienced guys and gals have to say a little more seriously. Maybe we have some experience to back up what we say.

Take a look at http://www1.faa.gov/avr/aai/iirform.htm and see some of the great decisions that are made on a daily basis.

 

[lilrkt]

I think we are arguing over semantics now. Bottom line, if you can make it to a towered field you land there. If unable to for whatever reason, you land and take all the precautions possible. With that in mind there has to be something said for the difference between a transport class airplanes as compared to an Arrow.