Save G.A.

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

That was your mistake...

Getting into a profession to make a living is not a mistake. It's called "normal." I'm sure most Doctors are passionate about what they do, but they didn't get into medicine just for fun. They did it to make a living.

dont make it hard for everyone elses passion just so you can be a hero.

Sorry, but I look at it the other way: don't drag down my profession just so you can have a hobby.

Try going to the UK, or almost any other country and see how it is flying over there. you really want to be like them?

Not completely, but we should shift a little more in that direction, yes.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

However, I think that can be done in other ways without the user fees... Like having something like Part 135 minimums before flying 121 for example, and creating tougher standards for Commercial/ATP certification.

I like those ideas, but the problem is that management won't go along with it. The ATA will fight tooth and nail to stop those sorts of changes. It's the same reason that we can't get the flight/duty time regulations improved. ALPA has some pull on the Hill, but not that much. They'd need a lot more involvement from the pilots and a lot more donations to get enough pull to make those things happen.

 

[charlie1017]

PCL, I bring it up because of the pilot-doctor analogy you made earlier.
My wife is currently in medical school, and cost alone isn't the only barrier for entry into medicine... Standards for entry into school and residencies are real tough with a barrage of licensing exams (USMLE 1, 2CK,2CS, 3) etc etc.

 

[OldTownPilot]

I might fly for a living so that I can fly whenever I feel like it. Kinda like "work to live not live to work".

Of course the ATA and RAA is going to lobby to get their clients to pay the government as little as possible. The NAS funding worked in the past for the airlines, why change it now. the government has already given immense loans to the airlines, including some cash payments. What has GA gotten from the government? NOTHING, unless you count a piss poor privatization of the FSS system a gift.

PCL, GA is infact a sizable portion of the economy, and it is like that because of the lack of immense fees that are charged in other countries.

There have been several proposals that have included fees for small piston single aircraft. Some have proposed the same fee no-matter the aircraft size, C172 or B737 because they use the same 'footprint'.

GA already pays into the NAS through fuel taxes. The airlines are exempted from these taxes and pay these fees that they want to have GA aircraft pay as well. Most of the proposals continue to have GA aircraft pay these fuel taxes in addition to the fees that have been proposed. There is absolutely no reason that GA should support more of the NAS than the airlines. We already get second rate treatment from ATC, I don't want to pay more than my fair share for the same second rate treatment that I get now. It has gotten so bad that I don't file VFR flight plans (albeit that is more of a LMCO function) or get flight following very often.

User fees to constrict the incoming pilot ranks? are you serious. All it will do is make sallie mae happy for those who get all starry eyed at the glossy ads in the back of Flying magazine. The people that this will hurt the most aren't the corporate jet-A burners, but the family run flight schools and FBOs.

 

[surreal1221]

User Fees for the average GA user (mom and pop flying their single engine piston aircraft around) are bad. The End.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Sorry, but I look at it the other way: don't drag down my profession just so you can have a hobby.

We aren't trying to drag it down, We are trying to keep the status quo. Big difference.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

PCL, I bring it up because of the pilot-doctor analogy you made earlier.
My wife is currently in medical school, and cost alone isn't the only barrier for entry into medicine... Standards for entry into school and residencies are real tough with a barrage of licensing exams (USMLE 1, 2CK,2CS, 3) etc etc.

Exactly, which is why I mentioned the AMA earlier. The AMA is responsible for these strict standards and testing. Through their relationships with the medical schools, they directly limit the incoming supply of doctors. They've developed a beautiful system to control their profession. It's a shame that we didn't think to do the same thing early on.

 

[ppilot]

<deleted by mod>

 

[OldTownPilot]

yeah, the strategic avoidance is quite obvious.

I've been skiing and partying the past few days (having a life besides innnerweb forums) or else I would have posted a while earlier.

 

[WalterSobchak]

It's hard to find people who are willing to plunk down $50K on top of their college degree to get a job that will pay them $20K their first year.

They're called doctors & lawyers. I wish every one would stop whining about how much money they spent to get a $20K year job. No one forces you to go to those puppy mill flight schools and spend 40% more on your ratings. Why do you deserve a job at all with 300 hours and a degree? Go earn a job. If you get a business degree there is no guarantee what job you will get. I hope the big flight schools charge $500,000 to go there then it will help get quality wages back in the industry by further enhancing the shortage of pilots. Every one wants to fly a jet, but it seems like few want to put in what it takes to earn that opportunity.

Save GA support your local FBO.

 

[Hacker15e]

What a phenomenally short-sighted and selfish idea; to want GA to die or wither simply to "lift up" the pilot profession.

 

[Airdale]

Getting into a profession to make a living is not a mistake. It's called "normal." I'm sure most Doctors are passionate about what they do, but they didn't get into medicine just for fun. They did it to make a living.



Sorry, but I look at it the other way: don't drag down my profession just so you can have a hobby.



Not completely, but we should shift a little more in that direction, yes.

Damn PCL! I <3 U! :laff:

Where is this money going to come from exactly? These airlines just got back out of bankruptcy and are finally pulling a profit. How do you expect them to pay for increased wages especially with the airlines heading back to the bankruptcy courts? Where do they get this money to help themselves, if not from the employees? Sure they can contribute with their wages, but it wont be enough.

WHAT? So you think that the employees, already operating on 65% paycuts, should give up MORE of their pay so that the company doesn't go Ch. 11!?? Unbelievable. Pilots are UNDERPAID as it is, if we give another INCH to these companies we will have completely lost our self respect and bargaining power.

General Aviation pilots should keep their noses out of the Airline operations. Period. If you have no experience with what you are talking about, then please spare us all another useless post.

You GA guys need to get your heads out of AOPA's butt. User fees are not proposed for you GA Mom and Pop FBO flyers (I'm one of them too, I fly 172's and Seminoles for fun). Stop standing up for the Corporate Jet operators that are skating by with not paying their fair share. You guys all got your AOPA panties in a wad over nothing. Until flying a Commercial Airliner is in your interest, than you shouldn't make comments about what the Airline business needs to do and how us paid Professional Pilots should be supporting the Airlines and the greedy passengers on our backs while our own families suffer.

I chose this profession when I was a kid, and in spite of various challenges presented, I'm sticking with it because this is the career I desire. I will not cower down and sit quietly while my wages qualify for food stamps. I paid my dues and spent my money in GA to get where I am at. Now its time I get paid well enough to live. I'm glad you have the money to go fly your GA airplane, but while I'm living paycheck to paycheck for food, I could care less about your Piper and Cessna.

Oh but don't worry. When you need to fly 1200 miles to see your family or take a vacation, you can count on the Airlines to get you there for under $300, courtesy of mine and every other pilots salary.

 

[mikecweb]

One of the most selfish things I've ever read.
When you airline guys get furloughed and have no where else to go but 135 freight or corporate flying I hope you remember how you wanted this industry to die because you fly us "1200 miles to see our families".

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You da man, Airdale!!! The sad thing is that AOPA is playing their members like a fiddle, and the members don't even realize it. They've fine-tuned their rhetoric to get all of the Piper pilots worked up about something that won't ever affect them. Meanwhile AOPA wastes the membership dollars of all of their true GA pilots to fight user fees for rich corporate aircraft owners. Pathetic. Canceled my AOPA membership 7 years ago and never looked back.

 

[Airdale]

One of the most selfish things I've ever read.
When you airline guys get furloughed and have no where else to go but 135 freight or corporate flying I hope you remember how you wanted this industry to die because you fly us "1200 miles to see our families".

I'm sorry you think thats selfish Mike, but the truth is nobody really cares about extra fees for GA or the smaller operators other than those who it directly affects. They have no direct impact on the economy. In fact, GA is a HOBBY, fed by excess money!

I've had no desire (at this point anyway) to want to fly 135 freight or corporate. While I don't see freight as being a big drain on the ATC system, here in the Northeast we are swamped with corporate aircraft. TEB airport in NJ handles the most corporate traffic over here. Their aircraft are launching into the NY/PA already cluttered airspace. They should be paying their share. Sorry dude, but thats how I feel.

The Airlines are just at fault as well, but they are already paying MORE than their share. Why would I care about the GA planes buzzing my house every hour when we as an entire industry are struggling to bring wages back up? I'm sorry if user fees might make it harder to get to the Commercial level, but I didn't get here rolling downhill on my scooter.

You da man, Airdale!!! The sad thing is that AOPA is playing their members like a fiddle, and the members don't even realize it. They've fine-tuned their rhetoric to get all of the Piper pilots worked up about something that won't ever affect them. Meanwhile AOPA wastes the membership dollars of all of their true GA pilots to fight user fees for rich corporate aircraft owners. Pathetic. Canceled my AOPA membership 7 years ago and never looked back.

Well thanks man! AOPA is a joke. I gave up on that membership a few years ago as well. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy General Aviation and I think that it should be kept affordable to the middle class and above. The problem is, many of us in the sky 75-100 hours a month trying to make a living don't even make enough money to go fly a 172 for fun. Therefore its not a priority on my list. If raising the fees for GA are a way to put more food on my table, then thats how I vote.

I should also add that GA fees won't raise the cost to get your ratings anymore then the cost of fuel. Just look at the average price to go from zero to Commercial 5 years ago and today. ATP alone has double its price in less than 5 years. GA fees are the least bit you folks have to worry about affecting supply of pilots.

 

[SteveC]

Stop standing up for the Corporate Jet operators that are skating by with not paying their fair share.

Fictional misinformation.

The airlines have falsely claimed that they pay more than 90 percent of all aviation taxes, while their operations make up only two-thirds of activity in the system.

The airlines’ hub and spoke operations have driven the design of our current air traffic control system which produces choke points. This is especially true at the Operational Evolution Plan (OEP) 35 airports, which receive a majority of the FAA’s funds and resources. The OEP 35 airports are predominantly airline hubs that constitute the busiest and most congested airports in the system. At the OEP 35 airports, GA only accounts for six percent of total operations. In fact, when you compare the airlines’ top 20 busiest airports with GA’s 20 busiest, there is zero correlation. Not one of GA’s busiest airports is on the airline list. The ATC system is built for the airlines’ use. Airlines drive the cost of a system that was solely designed to meet their needs and they should continue to pay for the system commensurate with how costs are allocated to operate the system. In other words, the cost of moving an airliner with over 100 passengers between two hubs such as Los Angeles and New York during peak departure and arrival times does not equate to moving a GA aircraft, generally flying at different altitudes than the airliners, between reliever airports in the same cities.

The largest costs involved in the ATC system, by far, are because of the airlines hub and spoke system and cramming too many flights into too short a time period into too few airports. The ATC system and airport infrastructures have to be sized to handle those peak airline loads, and those huge costs have nothing to do with corporate operators that tend to avoid the overloaded airports like the plague. You guys cause the costs - you guys pay for it.

 

[Airdale]

Fictional misinformation.



The largest costs involved in the ATC system, by far, are because of the airlines hub and spoke system and cramming too many flights into too short a time period into too few airports. The ATC system and airport infrastructures have to be sized to handle those peak airline loads, and those huge costs have nothing to do with corporate operators that tend to avoid the overloaded airports like the plague. You guys cause the costs - you guys pay for it.

I'll agree to that - to an extent. Although it should be "You guys cause the costs - THE CUSTOMER pays for it." Airline pilots should NOT support inflation with our salary just so Mr. John Hancock Wienerhead can get a cheap ticket to visit his mistress.

 

[mikecweb]

I guess some just forget where they came from.
Some also didn't have the oppurtunity to be in GA for only a few months before their first airline job. Some had to stay in it for years.
Keep looking out for number 1.
DON'T EVER EVER expect any favors from those outside of 121 if you keep wanting to screw them over.
AOPA does some great things for this industry and helps many people get into this industry and helps them while they are here. You may consider them the enemy now, which is sad. But as you say they feed you BS, ALPA isn't all roses either. I know that's taboo around these parts but its true. ALPA has improved this profession and some, myself included, have benefited from ALPA without paying any dues. But you have also benefited from AOPA and the fact that you forget that is sad.
Think how much the airlines have given you?
How much has GA given you?

Keep pulling up that ladder. Pathetic on a website that trys to help others get into this industry. Pathetic.

 

[SteveC]

I'll agree to that - to an extent. Although it should be "You guys cause the costs - THE CUSTOMER pays for it." Airline pilots should NOT support inflation with our salary just so Mr. John Hancock Wienerhead can get a cheap ticket to visit his mistress.

Agreed. Just put "the customer" in where I wrote "you guys" (both places!) and we're all cool!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Fictional misinformation.



The largest costs involved in the ATC system, by far, are because of the airlines hub and spoke system and cramming too many flights into too short a time period into too few airports. The ATC system and airport infrastructures have to be sized to handle those peak airline loads, and those huge costs have nothing to do with corporate operators that tend to avoid the overloaded airports like the plague. You guys cause the costs - you guys pay for it.

Those "choke points" drive the economy, whether the NBAA likes it or not. The airlines have no choice but to utilize a hub-and-spoke system in order to remain even marginally solvent. By taxing the hell out of the airlines, you're damaging one of the major industries that drives the U.S. and world economies. It will come back to bite you in the ass hard.