Sad Realization

[GypsyPilot]

If you firmly believe that you are a trained monkey as a 121 FO, you might not be doing your job.

This remains a thinking man's ball game, especially now that we're all PIC typed and therefore have no excuses available for poor performance.

This is absolutely correct. I'm just an average pilot at best. I come in, do what I can to help out, and go home. Prior to each flight I look at weather, NOTAMS, MELs, etc. I am proactive about what I can, while also doing my best to NOT be a "right seat captain". I also try to find a new challenge each year... That might be flying a new type at the company, flying our ASE system, etc.

I figure as a minimum, this is what somebody that cares about their profession should be doing. However, I can't tell you how many times I've had CAs thank me for helping out and having my act together at the end of a trip. While appreciative, I'm also somewhat baffled that my normal, everyday effort is perceived as going above and beyond. It shouldn't be, and it tells me that there are A LOT of bump on the log FOs out there. Guys too busy texting instead of looking at the release, being absolutely useless during a divert, and that sort of thing.

The point is there are many different ways to challenge yourself in the 121 world. When I hear guys say stuff like "A monkey could do my job", I don't doubt it in the least. But that's simply because you aren't challenging yourself, and quite frankly you're short changing your potential experience and perhaps even reputation at the airline.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

If you guys think that "going above and beyond" in 121 will make anyone in 135 not perceive you as a trained monkey you are just being naive.

They want guys who will think outside the box. An example of "thinking outside the box" is rejecting above V1 on a long runway. At least 135 operator I know of that has ARG/US Platinum asked a guy that hypothetical. In 135, if your immediate answer is that, regardless of runway length, you'll continue above V1, you'll abort below V1, you are, to them, a trained monkey.

That's where I was going with the trained monkey comment, anyway.

 

[mikecweb]

This thread just went full retard.
Never go full retard.

 

[Inverted]

If you guys think that "going above and beyond" in 121 will make anyone in 135 not perceive you as a trained monkey you are just being naive.

They want guys who will think outside the box. An example of "thinking outside the box" is rejecting above V1 on a long runway. At least 135 operator I know of that has ARG/US Platinum asked a guy that hypothetical. In 135, if your immediate answer is that, regardless of runway length, you'll continue above V1, you'll abort below V1, you are, to them, a trained monkey.

That's where I was going with the trained monkey comment, anyway.

Uhhhh, whaaaaaat?

 

[jtrain609]

Interesting analogy!

I think @z987k is the only one in the thread that's done both.

I worked at Amflight, and I've been working at a regional since then.

I found that if guys listened during training (rare), flew standard (rare), didn't complain about flying standard (rare), utilized all their resources (rare) and did the job like they were trained, the differences between Amflight and a part 121 airline are small.

At least when I was at Amflight, there's a culture in the pilot group that tells people it's ok to not do anything standard, because flying standard is stupid.

Those that bucked this trend moved on to excellent jobs after Amflight. Those that decided the book wasn't important enough to follow didn't.

So to me it's not so much a different in how Amflight operated aircraft when compared to 121 carriers, but in how close folks stuck to standard after getting out of training. There's no tolerance for making up your own procedures in the 121 world.

 

[elmetal]

I worked at Amflight, and I've been working at a regional since then.

I found that if guys listened during training (rare), flew standard (rare), didn't complain about flying standard (rare), utilized all their resources (rare) and did the job like they were trained, the differences between Amflight and a part 121 airline are small.

At least when I was at Amflight, there's a culture in the pilot group that tells people it's ok to not do anything standard, because flying standard is stupid.

Those that bucked this trend moved on to excellent jobs after Amflight. Those that decided the book wasn't important enough to follow didn't.

So to me it's not so much a different in how Amflight operated aircraft when compared to 121 carriers, but in how close folks stuck to standard after getting out of training. There's no tolerance for making up your own procedures in the 121 world.

And there's always someone in the flight deck with you to keep you in check. Very few AMF pilots fly in a crew env.

 

[MikeD]

I worked at Amflight, and I've been working at a regional since then.

I found that if guys listened during training (rare), flew standard (rare), didn't complain about flying standard (rare), utilized all their resources (rare) and did the job like they were trained, the differences between Amflight and a part 121 airline are small.

At least when I was at Amflight, there's a culture in the pilot group that tells people it's ok to not do anything standard, because flying standard is stupid.

Those that bucked this trend moved on to excellent jobs after Amflight. Those that decided the book wasn't important enough to follow didn't.

So to me it's not so much a different in how Amflight operated aircraft when compared to 121 carriers, but in how close folks stuck to standard after getting out of training. There's no tolerance for making up your own procedures in the 121 world.

Agree. Gotta stick to the standards (and know them), while also having the airmanship to know when, how, and why a deviation from any standard may be necessary when those times arise, and be able to properly articulate that and execute.

 

[GypsyPilot]

If you guys think that "going above and beyond" in 121 will make anyone in 135 not perceive you as a trained monkey you are just being naive.

They want guys who will think outside the box. An example of "thinking outside the box" is rejecting above V1 on a long runway. At least 135 operator I know of that has ARG/US Platinum asked a guy that hypothetical. In 135, if your immediate answer is that, regardless of runway length, you'll continue above V1, you'll abort below V1, you are, to them, a trained monkey.

That's where I was going with the trained monkey comment, anyway.

SpiceWeasel, I've flown 135 (charter) and corporate 91, both as PIC and in pistons, tprops, and a jet. Like Jtrain said above, the differences really aren't as significant as compared to the person.

Regardless of what segment of aviation an individual is in, if they have their act together, they will likely be successful. All the other stuff is just silly pissing matches, which is pretty indicative of amateur hour.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Uhhhh, whaaaaaat?

Yeah, no kidding.

Definitely something that a guy flying chieftains around would say. Not a good answer for somebody in jet aircraft.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

SpiceWeasel, I've flown 135 (charter) and corporate 91, both as PIC and in pistons, tprops, and a jet. Like Jtrain said above, the differences really aren't as significant as compared to the person.

Regardless of what segment of aviation an individual is in, if they have their act together, they will likely be successful. All the other stuff is just silly pissing matches, which is pretty indicative of amateur hour.

Uhhhh, whaaaaaat?

Yeah, no kidding.

Definitely something that a guy flying chieftains around would say. Not a good answer for somebody in jet aircraft.

That's not the point the point is that certain 135 places look at 121 guys as lesser aviators. That's their prerogative. I was providing one example, if only to state that it's not about what I think of my job or my capabilities, it's what someone else looking at a résumé thinks of them.

That quote comes from the interview a buddy of mine (121 only) had. He interviewed at a shop that flies Citations, Gulfstreams, etc.

 

[jtrain609]

Agree. Gotta stick to the standards (and know them), while also having the airmanship to know when, how, and why a deviation from any standard may be necessary when those times arise, and be able to properly articulate that and execute.

That's the problem, it's not often in the 121 world where you have to truly improvise. Configuring early isn't the same as saying, "Well crap, there's no applicable QRH for this problem, guess we'd better figure it out on our own." You ALWAYS have to bend profiles and SOP to fit the operational environment you find yourself in, as they're a starting point and a guide post, not something to be followed with absolute adherence.

But it is, in fact, so rare to find a problem that isn't in the QRH that the training department told me at my last shop that they found around 5% of reported abnormals were outside the bounds of the QRH and the training that we were provided. 95% of the time, you'd have a proper QRH to follow, and you'd already been trained on a problem before it happened.

The chances of you being that outlier are slim, though yes, it happens.

And let me give you an example of how not following the QRH can give you trouble; I talked with a guy who complained to me that one of our QRH procedures wasn't inadequate, and if he'd followed it he would have been killed, and he ended up making up his own procedure to fix a problem. I went back and looked at the QRH in question, and he simply didn't follow it properly, thus leading himself to thinking that it was worthless. The QRH was written just fine, but his reading comprehension skills weren't up to par.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Agreed. I've seen 135 background guys make it to the majors, but fewer and more far between than 121 guys. Maybe a function of less trying or less applying in comparison to 121 guys, but still this assessment holds true nonetheless from what I've observed. Even military, while it's great training and experience, isn't an efficient way to get to the majors merely due to the active duty service committment of 10 years, which comes out to about 11 or so post-training; or if you go directly to the reserves, time-building is so slow it takes about the same amount of years.

Plus most guys I know who went the 135 route have had to make several lateral moves in the process. Not unheard of at the regional level, but I'd say a lot more 121ers seem to get on with one company and stay there until they leave.

 

[MikeD]

That's the problem, it's not often in the 121 world where you have to truly improvise. Configuring early isn't the same as saying, "Well crap, there's no applicable QRH for this problem, guess we'd better figure it out on our own." You ALWAYS have to bend profiles and SOP to fit the operational environment you find yourself in, as they're a starting point and a guide post, not something to be followed with absolute adherence.

But it is, in fact, so rare to find a problem that isn't in the QRH that the training department told me at my last shop that they found around 5% of reported abnormals were outside the bounds of the QRH and the training that we were provided. 95% of the time, you'd have a proper QRH to follow, and you'd already been trained on a problem before it happened.

The chances of you being that outlier are slim, though yes, it happens.

Agree. That's why you have to have the discipline to know and follow the standards for all normal ops, yet have the airmanship to know when those extenuating circumstances are occurring and how to properly manage.

And let me give you an example of how not following the QRH can give you trouble; I talked with a guy who complained to me that one of our QRH procedures wasn't inadequate, and if he'd followed it he would have been killed, and he ended up making up his own procedure to fix a problem. I went back and looked at the QRH in question, and he simply didn't follow it properly, thus leading himself to thinking that it was worthless. The QRH was written just fine, but his reading comprehension skills weren't up to par.

There are examples of following QRH or procedures getting someone killed, although I agree the above isn't one of them. And they're usually aforementioned extenuating circumstances. One of the best examples is AA191, Chicago, 1979.

 

[GypsyPilot]

That's not the point the point is that certain 135 places look at 121 guys as lesser aviators. That's their prerogative. I was providing one example, if only to state that it's not about what I think of my job or my capabilities, it's what someone else looking at a résumé thinks of them.

That quote comes from the interview a buddy of mine (121 only) had. He interviewed at a shop that flies Citations, Gulfstreams, etc.

Oh, I don't doubt it in the least.

There are some good 135 operators out there, and I have some friends flying at those places. But most are pure crap, as we have seen quite clearly from the example you cited. There's a reason I don't consider 135 an option anymore (and why I have several excellent TMAAT stories from my 135 days that I use for interviews).

 

[Inverted]

That's not the point the point is that certain 135 places look at 121 guys as lesser aviators.

They do that because they have to justify somehow, the fact that they fly the industry's crappiest aircraft, and oldest equipment. You can call 121 guys lesser aviators all day long, but when you get in the cockpit whether its a part 135 jet, or a 121 jet and you don't have standards down you will be laughed right out of the cockpit. Flying single pilot IFR is an impressive feat, and not everyone can do it. But sometimes I feel like 135 freight guys are in this competition to be the smartest kid with down syndrome. Keep chest bumping about how MVFR that valley was you flew through, or how hard that NDB approach was, because nobody outside that crappy crew apartment gives a flying rats ass.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Keep chest bumping about how MVFR that valley was you flew through, or how hard that NDB approach was, because nobody outside that crappy crew apartment gives a flying rats ass.

What makes you think we're trying to impress YOU? Of course no one else cares, just like no one else cares about all the fancy doodads on your panel or wants to see the 10,000,000th "view out the window" picture this week on facebook. Or for that matter, the 100th "135 vs. 121" pursefight this month on JC. I look at you weirdos and all I see are potential fraud victi...er customers.

 

[gotWXdagain]

F-16 guy just uses pure instinct, you can't teach that. There's no time to think, if you think- you're dead!

If the pilots in AF447 or Asiana 219 had stopped to think rather than just trying to ham fist the airplane into doing what they wanted it to, alot of people would still be alive.

 

[Inverted]

What makes you think we're trying to impress YOU? Of course no one else cares, just like no one else cares about all the fancy doodads on your panel or wants to see the 10,000,000th "view out the window" picture this week on facebook. Or for that matter, the 100th "135 vs. 121" pursefight this month on JC. I look at you weirdos and all I see are potential fraud victi...er customers.

I never said anyone was trying to impress me. But when somebody says it on a public forum, anyone has the right to respond to it. Make sense?

 

[MikeD]

They do that because they have to justify somehow, the fact that they fly the industry's crappiest aircraft, and oldest equipment. You can call 121 guys lesser aviators all day long, but when you get in the cockpit whether its a part 135 jet, or a 121 jet and you don't have standards down you will be laughed right out of the cockpit. Flying single pilot IFR is an impressive feat, and not everyone can do it. But sometimes I feel like 135 freight guys are in this competition to be the smartest kid with down syndrome. Keep chest bumping about how MVFR that valley was you flew through, or how hard that NDB approach was, because nobody outside that crappy crew apartment gives a flying rats ass.

What makes you think we're trying to impress YOU? Of course no one else cares, just like no one else cares about all the fancy doodads on your panel or wants to see the 10,000,000th "view out the window" picture this week on facebook. Or for that matter, the 100th "135 vs. 121" pursefight this month on JC. I look at you weirdos and all I see are potential fraud victi...er customers.

The BL is what i've been saying: that you can't have either extreme, there has to be a balance. Cronin, Haynes, Sully are all professional aviators who were as up with the standards as any of their peers, yet flexible enough to realize when they had to use their own airmanship for either a situation the book didn't cover, or one that was developing so quickly that they couldn't even really take time to hack the clock.

The myopic checklist-only guy who can't ever think outside what a QRH tells him, is just as bad as the cowboy who thinks standards are for the birds and don't apply to him. The professional follows the standards, with the airmanship to know when deviations are truly needed, why they're needed , and how to most safely accomplish them.

 

[knot4u]

They do that because they have to justify somehow, the fact that they fly the industry's crappiest aircraft, and oldest equipment. You can call 121 guys lesser aviators all day long, but when you get in the cockpit whether its a part 135 jet, or a 121 jet and you don't have standards down you will be laughed right out of the cockpit. Flying single pilot IFR is an impressive feat, and not everyone can do it. But sometimes I feel like 135 freight guys are in this competition to be the smartest kid with down syndrome. Keep chest bumping about how MVFR that valley was you flew through, or how hard that NDB approach was, because nobody outside that crappy crew apartment gives a flying rats ass.

I'm confused. Single pilot IFR is impressive? Isn't that what the checkride is supposed to verify? Or am I just thinking about private flying?