Sad but True

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He never said that he was furloughed due to that "busted" sim checkride. . .

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I know that's not what he meant, but it sure seemed that way.
 
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For a company that operates pretty much all jet fleets with nice FMS junk, would you not agree that it was a stupid evaluation?

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Even though many airlines have GPS and that great "FMS junk" in their planes, don't assume that they are allowed to shoot GPS approaches with them.


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Nobody is assuming this at all. There is no need for most airlines to shoot GPS approaches. Why, when an ILS or VOR approach will do?

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So as far as a stupid eval, not so.


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I still say yes, it is. If a company isn't allowed to shoot NDB approaches, and the aircraft aren't equipped with ADF's (this all depends on the company/aircraft), why evaluate a person's ability to shoot an NDB approach? That's like testing a flight attendant on landing skills. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

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I guess being a more complete pilot is an important eval though. Can this person expect the unexpected and adapt accordingly? or are they so one dimensional that they crumble when things are different?

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If this is the logic behind having an applicant execute an approach that the company NEVER doesn, well...the company needs to do some thinking.

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How many times in aviation have you caught yourself saying "I haven't seen that before" or "I haven't heard that before" or "that's never happened before", especially when going to different parts of the country dealing with different ATC's and airports.


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Happens to all of us.

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Like I said before, until you never see an NDB approach plate anymore, NDB's are decomissioned, and they take that ADF receiver out of your plane, wouldn't it be prudent to be able to correctly use all available resources if the need arises?


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Agreed, 100%. However, how many airlines allow their crews to execute NDB approaches? Not many, I'd bet.

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(and whoever thinks the need won't arise has never had a receiver go inop in flight before) Always have a few extra goodies in your bag of tricks. Being able to use the ADF receiver in your plane is a simple trick and it just might keep you in the "loop" if you can make the simple "sense" of it all. (puns were intended) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif

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Again, agreed. And I can use the ADF. I can shoot an NDB approach. If I'm training a student in a plane with an ADF, (s)he'll learn to do the same.

I will, however, spend more time teaching GPS than NDB. Period. It's going away, and it's becoming a very esoteric skill.
 
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For a company that operates pretty much all jet fleets with nice FMS junk, would you not agree that it was a stupid evaluation?

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Even though many airlines have GPS and that great "FMS junk" in their planes, don't assume that they are allowed to shoot GPS approaches with them.


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Nobody is assuming this at all. There is no need for most airlines to shoot GPS approaches. Why, when an ILS or VOR approach will do?

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So as far as a stupid eval, not so.


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I still say yes, it is. If a company isn't allowed to shoot NDB approaches, and the aircraft aren't equipped with ADF's (this all depends on the company/aircraft), why evaluate a person's ability to shoot an NDB approach? That's like testing a flight attendant on landing skills. Stupid, stupid, stupid.


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OK, I guess I wasn't clear the first or second time. I was shooting an ILS APPROACH that required the use of an NDB as a secondary navigation aid. I didn't have to shoot an NDB approach, but that sure didn't mean I didn't need to use the ADF!
 
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I still say yes, it is. If a company isn't allowed to shoot NDB approaches, and the aircraft aren't equipped with ADF's (this all depends on the company/aircraft), why evaluate a person's ability to shoot an NDB approach? That's like testing a flight attendant on landing skills. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

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I don't know where you are getting the idea that we don't shoot NDB approaches or don't have ADF's in the plane. I have yet to talk to any other airline pilots that don't have ADF's in their planes. Next time you fly on an airline, have a look at the radio tuning panel. See that freq next to the letters ADF? That tunes in the NDB, now select the ADF with your bearing pointers, Voila! Rocket science at its finest. ILS' do go out of service. It used to happen all the time landing 27R in Sanford. So tell all of those Domestic 727's, 737's, Dc-9's and British charter 747's, 767's, 330's...and such that come into Sanford that they can't shoot those NDB approaches that they were cleared for. It would appear you loathe the basic NDB, but we still use it if we have to. So if we might have to use it, you'd better be able to. Still a good eval no matter how much you disagree.

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If this is the logic behind having an applicant execute an approach that the company NEVER doesn, well...the company needs to do some thinking.


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Guess what? CHQ flies into Key West. Guess what KEYW doesn't have? You're right! No ILS. Guess what approach they do have to shoot in there? Holy cow! it's an NDB-A approach!

Don't mean to dog you here, but once again, airlines do still have to shoot them. My dad had to all the time going into Central and South America in the 757/767. He didn't like it, but they did.

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That's like testing a flight attendant on landing skills. Stupid, stupid, stupid

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Haven't you ever landed a flight attendant before? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif But you are right on that one- stupid, stupid, stupid. They bounce. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I know he never said that.. but that's what was implied in his msg...that's why i asked instead of assuming that he "meant" it that way.
 
Shot an NDB in actual to about 200' above MDA a couple of months ago in the CRJ. The ILS and VOR approach to the airport were out. Worked great (the CRJ's ADF works a little better than the ones at DCA :-), and I am sure the passengers appreciated getting to their destination.

I guess I am in the minority, though, having less than 1000 line hours and an real NDB approach under my belt. I have also shot LOC, LOC-BC, VORs, and DME arcs. Fundamental navigation skill (ala NDB and VOR tracking) comes in real handy when the magic box decides it has reached its duty limitations. Almost all of us flying FMS/C aircraft have had days without the help of the computer.
 
Well, we could always get rid of those crappy FMS's and all get good on NDB approaches!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Doug, which airports do you get to shoot NDB approaches at? Don, DE727 - does UPS shoot any NDB approaches? Mr. Tenney, did Midway do NDB approaches?

I'm just wondering.....
 
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Doug, which airports do you get to shoot NDB approaches at?

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None. And I haven't shot one on the line since becoming an airline pilot in 1996 (~8.5 years?) Most captains I know wouldn't accept one unless it was already VFR in the domestic U.S..

I'd better read the entirety of the thread to make sure I didn't step on anyone's toes by answering... But I saw "Doug" and the "You've got MAIL!" went off in my head.

Carry on!
 
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I'd better read the entirety of the thread to make sure I didn't step on anyone's toes by answering... But I saw "Doug" and the "You've got MAIL!" went off in my head.


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/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

No toe stepping here.
 
Never done an NDB approach since I've been at UPS, that would be 1990.

The ADF's in the 727's have inop stickers and NDB approaches aren't in the ops specs anymore. The 757/767 has ADF receivers and we can do NDB approaches but we do them in LNAV. In LNAV, the FMS gets position input from three IRS's and is also constantly updated by VOR/DME. So, in LNAV, you are flying the NDB final course but the nav system is NOT using the ADF signal. You are supposed to "monitor" the ADF needle for proper indication during the approach as a back up....yeah, like I have time for that.....
 
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I don't know where you are getting the idea that we don't shoot NDB approaches or don't have ADF's in the plane. I have yet to talk to any other airline pilots that don't have ADF's in their planes. Next time you fly on an airline, have a look at the radio tuning panel. See that freq next to the letters ADF? That tunes in the NDB, now select the ADF with your bearing pointers, Voila! Rocket science at its finest. ILS' do go out of service. It used to happen all the time landing 27R in Sanford. So tell all of those Domestic 727's, 737's, Dc-9's and British charter 747's, 767's, 330's...and such that come into Sanford that they can't shoot those NDB approaches that they were cleared for. It would appear you loathe the basic NDB, but we still use it if we have to. So if we might have to use it, you'd better be able to. Still a good eval no matter how much you disagree.

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The above posts are perfect examples of what I'm talking about.

So, still a stupid eval no matter how much YOU disagree... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Hmmm, I see a 500 post thred sometime in the near future....I think we're all just going to have to agree to disagree.

Might I just add though, that despite my previous arguments, I still do feel that NDBs suck. And NDB approaches are NOT fun. Especially when it's partial panel (yeah, guess what I got on my IPC yesterday!)
 
I feel you, Chris.

The fact of the matter is that pilots find it hard to let things go. Alot of pilots that have been flying for 30 years can't let the NDB go. It's a part of their world, and they find it hard to believe that there might be a generation that laughs at the notion of doing such things.

I know that there are lots of airports out there with NDB approaches, and that's groovy. However, there are alot of other things that I can lose sleep over.
 
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Lloyd, you're now going to be evaluated on PAR approaches.

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/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I was just telling a student yesterday that I wanted to take him up to Ft. Campbell to see if they have PAR capability, and if so if they'd give us one or two. Simply for the cool factor!!

I used to do them out at New River, but they stopped letting us for a while....

Happen to have your IFR supplement handy? If so, do they PAR at Fort Campbell?
 
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KHOP has PAR to RW 23 and ASR to RW 5/23. Pretty big field.

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Well, there we go!!

I always thought PARs were pretty fun, and I think that they can show a student just how important a smooth, planned, stable approach is.
 
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The fact of the matter is that pilots find it hard to let things go. Alot of pilots that have been flying for 30 years can't let the NDB go. It's a part of their world, and they find it hard to believe that there might be a generation that laughs at the notion of doing such things.


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LLoyd, LLoyd, LLoyd, - You're killing me! Absolutely killing me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif Hopefully this is just flame bait /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif, but if not-
Hard to let what go? I don't know what world you are flying in, but isn't it still part of our (emphasis on "our") aviation world? (Why do I feel like Jeff Spicolie(sp) talking to Mr. Hand "what's wrong with a little feast on our time?") Until they are just "chat in the hangar" in the "remember when..." column, they are still in our world whether we like it or not. If you feel that strongly about it, you should start a grassroots movement petitioning to get a "cease and desist" order from the FAA on the use of ADF's and NDB's because of "cruel and unusual punishment" and the "emotional scarring" that it is leaving on some pilots. Call it how you see it, but as for me and the airline I work for and others, we can and do shoot NDB approaches sometimes (and this is with a modern glass cockpit), ergo it's still part of our world whether you want to accept it or not. I also made sure my students were well informed on the ADF's use and limitations. I would have been totally unprofessional in my duties and responsibilities as an instructor otherwise. If I told them "I'll give you a quick lesson on these but don't worry, you'll never have to use these antiquated relics from years gone by, they are just there for show" and they ended up having to rely on their use at one point in their flying career (for real or in a sim on a checkride)- well, they would be justified in punching me in the face for deriliction of duty as an instructor if they couldn't use it efficiently. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buck.gif
Now having said that, don't think I'm a big fan of the NDB. It's subject to way too many outside influences to be extremely accurate. Is it easy to use, yes. Is it always accurate, no. Some NDB's have a great signals, others are definitely a bit suspect. Would I accept an NDB approach in hilly or mountainous terrain? No way. But since this thread started I've been trying to notice more airports we fly to that have only NDB approaches to certain runways. We just flew into PNS the other day and low and behold 35 doesn't have an ILS. We were cleared for the usual visual, but just for kicks dialed in the freq for the NDB and monitored the inbound course. It was pretty dead on. I'd have no problem accepting that approach if so given. (you pretty much come in over the water anyway, no hills to contend with). I don't know how much evidence you need, but please don't do your students a disservice by giving them a myopic view leading them to believe they are stupid and not ever going to be used. It might bite them in the butt, then it would be your fault. Always teach to expect the unexpected. Let them make up their own minds about the "old man" of navigation. If they are "lucky" enough to never have to use them, holy cow, good for them. But I would never bet on those odds.

p.s. - I'll be the first person to sign your petition if it is economically and strategically justified.

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The fact of the matter is that pilots find it hard to let things go. Alot of pilots that have been flying for 30 years can't let the NDB go. It's a part of their world, and they find it hard to believe that there might be a generation that laughs at the notion of doing such things.


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LLoyd, LLoyd, LLoyd, - You're killing me! Absolutely killing me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif Hopefully this is just flame bait /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif, but if not-


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No, it's not flame bait. Like I said before, I know that NDB's are important. I understand that you can still be tested on NDB approaches, and so it's my responsibility to insure that my students are both competent and confident in the use of the ADF.

That being said, I also think that it is just as important, if not MORE important, that they be able to navigate and execute approaches using GPS. This is the future! So, I make sure that I teach them NDB's. I teach them that it's important. I teach them that the FAA may want to test them on it.

But I don't lose any sleep over it.

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Hard to let what go? I don't know what world you are flying in, but isn't it still part of our (emphasis on "our") aviation world?


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Without a doubt. Like I said, I teach them....but I recognize that it's going to be in the past soon.


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If you feel that strongly about it, you should start a grassroots movement petitioning to get a "cease and desist" order from the FAA on the use of ADF's and NDB's because of "cruel and unusual punishment" and the "emotional scarring" that it is leaving on some pilots.


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/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif No, I'm not emotionally scarred by the NDB's. I've never had any problems learning how to use them. And I can teach it just fine. I would have been able to use the four range radios and lighted airways just fine, too! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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Call it how you see it, but as for me and the airline I work for and others, we can and do shoot NDB approaches sometimes (and this is with a modern glass cockpit), ergo it's still part of our world whether you want to accept it or not.


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No, I accept it. However, I still say it's stupid! I'll do the approach on the test. I still say it's stupid!!
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I also made sure my students were well informed on the ADF's use and limitations. I would have been totally unprofessional in my duties and responsibilities as an instructor otherwise. If I told them "I'll give you a quick lesson on these but don't worry, you'll never have to use these antiquated relics from years gone by, they are just there for show" and they ended up having to rely on their use at one point in their flying career (for real or in a sim on a checkride)- well, they would be justified in punching me in the face for deriliction of duty as an instructor if they couldn't use it efficiently. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buck.gif


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Agreed. But what if you spent more time on NDB approaches than GPS approaches, and they were on and had to shoot a GPS approach sometime in the future...would they be just as justified in punching you in the face?

I've done more GPS approaches than I have NDB approaches. Personally, I think I've been robbed....(not really, but there's some inbalance...).

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Now having said that, don't think I'm a big fan of the NDB.


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You heathen!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I don't know how much evidence you need, but please don't do your students a disservice by giving them a myopic view leading them to believe they are stupid and not ever going to be used. It might bite them in the butt, then it would be your fault. Let them make up their own minds about the "old man" of navigation.


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I don't attempt to do them any disservice. I simply tell them that they need to know these, and that if they ever have to fly a 1970's model 172 (most 172's are this vintage), they may have to shoot one of these appraoches if they decide to frequent airports in eastern North Carolina.

(just teasing....)

I know they happen. And one day they may have to shoot them. However, they have a much greater chance of shooting GPS, LOC, ILS and VOR approaches. This I do tell them.
 
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