Sad but True

Re: NDB\'s

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"Although it is a good idea to be familiar with the NDB there is no reason (other than to milk students) to make it the main focus of instrument training. "

NDB is not the main focus of instrument training at DCA. It is however one of the tasks that are taught. Your insinuation that NDB's are used to "milk" students is unfortunate. On that note, I would rather be "milked", and learn all that I can, than be "spared" with partial and incomplete training. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

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We get your point - you like being milked! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I stand by my statement, though. I teach it. I also tell them not to lose any sleep over it. Put it in the category with Radar approaches and Cruise clearances. You might get one, one day, when it's crappy out and everything else is broken....but don't hold your breath.
 
Re: NDB\'s

[ QUOTE ]
I stand by my statement, though. I teach it. I also tell them not to lose any sleep over it. Put it in the category with Radar approaches and Cruise clearances. You might get one, one day, when it's crappy out and everything else is broken....but don't hold your breath.


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I actually got a cruise clearance last summer on my 2nd ever IFR x-country.

Thunderstorms were all around and it was late and I asked the controller for a lower altitude because I couldn't maintain 9000 due to the thunderstorm (outflow phenomena I think). She came back and said fly whatever altidue I want from 4 to 9 thousand.

I thought that was pretty cool.
 
Re: NDB\'s

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I stand by my statement, though. I teach it. I also tell them not to lose any sleep over it. Put it in the category with Radar approaches and Cruise clearances. You might get one, one day, when it's crappy out and everything else is broken....but don't hold your breath.


[/ QUOTE ]

I actually got a cruise clearance last summer on my 2nd ever IFR x-country.

Thunderstorms were all around and it was late and I asked the controller for a lower altitude because I couldn't maintain 9000 due to the thunderstorm (outflow phenomena I think). She came back and said fly whatever altidue I want from 4 to 9 thousand.

I thought that was pretty cool.

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Oh, yeah! It can happen! I've heard of people getting them. From what I understand, it's a little more common up in your neck of the woods.

Did you get an NCB approach at the end of the flight?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: NDB\'s

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She came back and said fly whatever altidue I want from 4 to 9 thousand.



[/ QUOTE ]

That is not the same thing as a cruise clearance. The controller would have needed to give you a completely new clearance in order for it to become a cruise clearance and it would have allowed you to go ahead and shoot the approach of your choice at the destination airport also.

Sounds like you got a 'block of airspace' in which you could operate.
 
Re: NDB\'s

Perhaps i missed it, but who claimed that NDB's were "the main focus" of instrument training? I know at DCA and I assume that most other schools part 141 or 61 that teach NDB's, teach them with enough empasis that the student becomes proficient enough to fly them, no less, no more. Just like all of the other types of approaches....
 
Re: NDB\'s

Here's what you missed. Way back at the beginning of this thread a DCA guy made the comment that a student came to DCA who never learned NDB's and just couldn't believe the low standards upheld in the rest of the world, non-DCA, training environment. I took that as just another "we are superior to everyone else", pro-DCA, comment from a DCA student.

Now...that pisses me off a bit because I can train a great IFR student in my Garmin 430 approach approved GPS, non-NDB equipped, airplane. I can teach them NDB in my ground trainers if they want to know it. The FAA doesn't consider NDB a big enough deal to require you demonstrate NDB's to be an IFR rated pilot.

So...that's how we got here.
 
Re: NDB\'s

[ QUOTE ]
Now I had to deal first hand with a student that came from a part 141 school in the midwest. They garanteed him a set price... he got what he paid for! He got his instrument ticket without ever shooting an NDB approach neither flying a DME ARC.... I heard that some schools deactivate their ADF receivers and placard them so they don't have to deal with NDBs... That is a discount instument certification! I guess some people wouldn't mind gettin it through the web by flying MFS if it were available.... good luck! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Now you can argue that NDBs will be out of service soon... But they are still around and will be around internationally for while...

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the quote you speak of, accusing Planediveguy of being "we are superior...". The point was that this student was trained in an aircraft with an operable ADF, but placarded inop, so that the student didn't have to learn how to do an NDB approach. If you want to take that comment as a "we are superior school" plug, then so be it, it is after all the DCA forum, but it just isn't supported for you to come to that conclusion. And as far as you being a little pissed about it, I couldn't find a response from anyone saying that you have to teach ADF ops to train a great IFR pilot. No one insulted your abilities as an instructor if you have an a/c equipped without an ADF so you don't teach it. I don't know, maybe you were just having a bad day and that is why you said you are pissed.

Regarding the FAA not requiring you to demonstrate proficiency in ADF operations, no they don't - they merely state Non-precision and Precision. However, if you are in an aircraft equipped with an ADF, they can require it just as they can require demonstration of GPS operations if the plane is equipped with the 430 stack or any other GPS. The past pages have argued the point of NDB's, pro and con, and quite frankly I think both sides have a good point. However, when I am training a student and the a/c is equipped with an ADF I am going to make sure my student is proficient enough with it to be able to fly the approach on their own.
 
Re: NDB\'s

Naw....not having a bad day. Just don't like your school. The way planediveguy made the comment didn't sit well with me and since I'm predisposed to not liking your school, I said what I said. Thanks for clearing it all up for me, though.

I think what happed was I just read another one of those DCA ads in flight training mag and my blood pressure hadn't come down quite yet....maybe that was it.
 
Re: NDB\'s

Oh do I hate the NDB! I began instrument training before I came to DCA and I was just given a ground course on how the NDBs work and how to use them to navigate. SoCal doesn't have that many NDBs and all the aircraft were not ADF equipped. Now when I got to DCA, it gave me the most trouble. I busted many a stage check for NDB intercepting and tracking or approaches. I've gotten the hang of it, enough to get by. The only thing I don't like is that on the End of Course flight, ALL students are required to do the NDB approach. You can pretty much choose the approaches you want, but one of your approaches will be the NDB approach.
 
Re: NDB\'s

Thanks for making my point with those comments...

Those of you that have a problem seeing DCA's ads may have a more profound inner issue to resolve... Therapy might work!

It was never my intention to pretend that anyone at DCA is superior in anything. And I can honestly say that t I don't feel that way...But here I am talking about pilots, not the training. DCA training is very tough and demanding and we are always striving to do better.

We only lost one airplane to the hurricanes and we got back into operations before the "other" schools in the region.

Enrollment is way up, COMAIR hired instructors this very month ( as did Chautauqua) and we are doing VERY well, thank you!!!!!







/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif
 
Re: NDB\'s

I don't need thearpy....slamming DCA to anyone who asks me about the school works just fine.

I don't have a negative comment about DCA's training...as I know nothing about it other than what DCA students say.

My dislike for the school is with the way it's marketed. Those ads certainly must work if enrollment is way up.
 
Re: NDB\'s

[ QUOTE ]
Those of you that have a problem seeing DCA's ads may have a more profound inner issue to resolve

[/ QUOTE ]


hmmm... would that issue be called the TRUTH?

DCAs ads are a bunch of bul!sh#t lies and you know it, so dont try to justify it. Why doesnt marketing let the quality of training sell the product rather than resort to lies and false promises?

Heres a good one-liner from one of their ads: Even Delta was so convinced we are the best flight school, they Bought Us!
(Actually Delta bought Comair airlines. I highly doubt Delta really gave a rip that they got a flight school thrown in the mix when they took over.)
 
Re: NDB\'s

I don't hate any school...just the NDB approach. I had a student ask me today what an NDB approach was, and if he could learn them.

I told him to watch the King video and that we'd do them in the PCATD. That's about as good as it gets with me. Waste of time. We don't even own any planes with ADF. If we get one, they remove the ADF and make room for another GPS...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: NDB\'s

[ QUOTE ]
I don't hate any school...just the NDB approach. I had a student ask me today what an NDB approach was, and if he could learn them.

I told him to watch the King video and that we'd do them in the PCATD. That's about as good as it gets with me. Waste of time. We don't even own any planes with ADF. If we get one, they remove the ADF and make room for another GPS...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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I'm getting the impression that I'm the only one on here who has shot an NDB approach in IMC in the last forty years... I've done a couple of NDB approaches in actual (I've only been instrument rated for a little over a year). I personally think they're worthwhile to learn... depending on where you fly, and if you don't have a GPS, you may well find an ADF to be useful!
 
Re: NDB\'s

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I'm getting the impression that I'm the only one on here who has shot an NDB approach in IMC in the last forty years...

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Me me, also!! Makes two of us. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: NDB\'s

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm getting the impression that I'm the only one on here who has shot an NDB approach in IMC in the last forty years...

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Me me, also!! Makes two of us. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet!! I'm not the only one!! I was startin' to think I was crazy for every attempting one!
 
Re: NDB\'s

As a student, I was lucky enough to fly the NDB into SFB to minimums, go missed because we hadn't broken out of IMC, and then get re-vectored for the ILS. Real life (outside of the training environment) I wouldn't have done the NDB since an ILS was available on that runway, but like I said, the experience was great. Now if only we could keep the hurricane winds away when there is actual I might be able to do the same for one of my students. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
Re: NDB\'s

Montanapilot,

Long time no see...

please refer to my post on DCA Ad poll...


Just so you know....

Delta is in deep financial trouble... and has been since the cange in the market. In 2002 Comair Airlines and Comair Aviation Academy reported profits, the same happened in 2003 and I will bet it will happen in 2004...

So even though the school is a drop in the bucket in comparison of Delta's main business... it is making money, not losing...

By the way... The TRUTH is out there....

Sorry but I had to change my avatar... that guy's picture was making me sick... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
 
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