Sad but True

"In 3 years, I've never flown one NDB approach (due to weather)"

How about.....In a career starting in 1979, I've never flown one NDB approach cause there was nothing else available.

Also, when GPS went into our 727's, the company stopped bothing with training us for NDB approaches, and we lost the certification to do them. What a bummer.....

IFR GPS, though.....that's the future. If your school (DCA?) doesn't have the equipment to train you in GPS approaches, then you are missing out. Maybe you should check out some little part 61 schools that have the equipment....
 
I think the worst I've flown is a localizer back course, but no NDB's since 1996.

The simulator, however, is a different story!
 
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I think the worst I've flown is a localizer back course, but no NDB's since 1996.

The simulator, however, is a different story!

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Doug is totally correct. You definitely will shoot plenty in the sim. Good fun!
Can't remember where we were flying the trip to a couple of months ago, but the ILS was out of service and they were using an NDB approach. We got the airport in sight fairly quickly, so we were cleared for the visual instead. I was kind of disappointed, I was looking forward to the NDB approach. I've also talked to a friend recently who had to shoot an NDB on their trip. The point being when you do get to a flying job somewhere, you'd better be able to shoot a simple NDB approach. I'd like to see and hear the Sim instructor or the Captain's face when you tell them "I don't do NDB's"! The words "Next!" springs to mind as they send you packing. Until they are decommisioned and don't exist anymore, then you can pipe up, but if there is a chance you might have to shoot one, I think it would be beneficial if you knew what the heck you are doing. It's not like ADF's and NDB's are rocket science or anything, get the picture? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buck.gif
 
Besides, they're pretty easy in the sim, but would probably scare the bejezus out of me if I had to do one to minimums.

I did a localizer approach (without DME) to bare bones minimums with no approach lights in a driving, windy rainstorm a few months ago and I think I used about two of nine lives that evening.
 
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Discount IFR rating? I say it's milking students to make them learn crap they're not going to use.



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Really? Well, I'm glad my instrument instructor "milked" me teaching something I'd "never use", because I was asked to do some ADF work on my sim eval at my CHQ interview last week! Some people were even asked to do an NDB hold! Never saw that coming /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
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Really? Well, I'm glad my instrument instructor "milked" me teaching something I'd "never use", because I was asked to do some ADF work on my sim eval at my CHQ interview last week! Some people were even asked to do an NDB hold! Never saw that coming /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

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Oh, don't get me wrong - there are alot of companies out there prentending that it's 1984!!!

For a company that operates pretty much all jet fleets with nice FMS junk, would you not agree that it was a stupid evaluation?
 
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IFR GPS, though.....that's the future. If your school (DCA?) doesn't have the equipment to train you in GPS approaches, then you are missing out. Maybe you should check out some little part 61 schools that have the equipment....

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Most of the big schools are too busy paying for ads to put GPS in the planes....
 
DCA doesn't do any GPS training in the IR course, but you do plenty in the IFR section of the multi course. By the time you graduate, you are proficient in both NDB and GPS navigation/approaches.

The NDB work in the sim eval required me to shoot a full ILS approach (after I was told that tracon's radar had failed), with the LOM as an initial approach fix. The hold for the missed was also an NDB hold at an LOM. I had to shoot to minimums and then go missed as published. While such a scenario is unlikely while flying in a jet under 121, I wouldn't say it is completely unrealistic.
 
mtsu,

i dont think it is a stupid evaluation at all, if i had two candidates to choose from and one could fly everything except an NDB and one could fly everything, all else being equal, i will hire the one who could do it all... the fact that the candidate is that prepared shows me his level of commitment to my company.
 
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Most of the big schools are too busy paying for ads to put GPS in the planes....

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Hummm, wonder why they put new Garmin 430 stacks in all the Piper aircraft we have and got them approved for the 172 fleet too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
"The hold for the missed was also an NDB hold at an LOM. I had to shoot to minimums and then go missed as published. While such a scenario is unlikely while flying in a jet under 121, I wouldn't say it is completely unrealistic."

How many 121 jets don't have an FMC? With an FMC, to hold at the LOM you push the "hold" button and fill in a few boxes....
 
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Most of the big schools are too busy paying for ads to put GPS in the planes....

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Hummm, wonder why they put new Garmin 430 stacks in all the Piper aircraft we have and got them approved for the 172 fleet too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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I meant that with sarcasm. i'm sure that many schools have GPS in the aircraft....
 
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For a company that operates pretty much all jet fleets with nice FMS junk, would you not agree that it was a stupid evaluation?

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Even though many airlines have GPS and that great "FMS junk" in their planes, don't assume that they are allowed to shoot GPS approaches with them. I know at Comair and Chautauqua, we aren't allowed to shoot GPS approaches even though our planes are so equipped. Why this is, I am not sure, but I'll find out. So as far as a stupid eval, not so. I guess being a more complete pilot is an important eval though. Can this person expect the unexpected and adapt accordingly? or are they so one dimensional that they crumble when things are different? How many times in aviation have you caught yourself saying "I haven't seen that before" or "I haven't heard that before" or "that's never happened before", especially when going to different parts of the country dealing with different ATC's and airports. Like I said before, until you never see an NDB approach plate anymore, NDB's are decomissioned, and they take that ADF receiver out of your plane, wouldn't it be prudent to be able to correctly use all available resources if the need arises? (and whoever thinks the need won't arise has never had a receiver go inop in flight before) Always have a few extra goodies in your bag of tricks. Being able to use the ADF receiver in your plane is a simple trick and it just might keep you in the "loop" if you can make the simple "sense" of it all. (puns were intended) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif
 
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Being able to use the ADF receiver in your plane is a simple trick and it just might keep you in the "loop" if you can make the simple "sense" of it all. (puns were intended) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif

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Obscure/subtle puns. Gotta love 'em.
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Not sure about 121 ops, but aren't you responsible for operational knowledge of all parts of the aircraft? If installed, can't the FAA test you on an NDB hold or approach or intercepting and tracking?? I agree that they are outdated and the last nav aid I would want to use, especially shooting an approach, but I also want to be able to use everything I can in the aircraft to help me out, including an ADF receiver. If nothing else, at least it points out the lightning to me so I can stay away from it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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...but I also want to be able to use everything I can in the aircraft to help me out, including an ADF receiver. If nothing else, at least it points out the lightning to me so I can stay away from it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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I wouldn't recommend relying too heavily on the lightning detection capabilities, though...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
NDB's are easy and simple to use, once you truly understand it. I agree that it is old technology and I will be happy the day they are all gone. However, like I said .... They are still around...

Being located in "Sunny" Florida, I have had a lot more actual IFR experience with my students than expected...

And DCA does have dual 430 on all the new Seminoles, The piper arrows are being outfitted with them and the 172's will be next...

If you want to do the mimimum necessary to get your certificates, that's your premise...you will become what we call a "PTS" pilot.

In other words... somone that just meets the minimum standards...

Is that the way you want to be trained?



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By the way Doug that last post was directed to all reading this thread.. not directly to you!

I had a friend that "busted" a 767 sim checkride on an NDB apporach.... Why the hell they asked him to shoot an NDB on a 767 I don't know... but it happened... He got furloughed from AA (ex TWA) and is now a 757 Captain for a charter company....
 
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I had a friend that "busted" a 767 sim checkride on an NDB apporach.... Why the hell they asked him to shoot an NDB on a 767 I don't know... but it happened... He got furloughed from AA (ex TWA) and is now a 757 Captain for a charter company....

[/ QUOTE ] now, that's an interesting story...are you trying to say that the guy got "furloughed" because of a busted SIM checkride using an approach that normally isn't used for that type of aircraft? hmmmmm... maybe you don't know this yet, but that's just NOT how it works.. if you bust a SIM checkride while in training (cuz all checkrides are done during training), they put you in for more training... and then retest you (even I know that...)

if he got furloughed, then it was most likely due to seniority (with the AA/TWA merger) &/or maybe 9/11.. not a busted SIM checkride.

Furloughed means you have opportunity to come back - later, when the company starts hiring again....

typically, if you do something seriously wrong like continued failed checkrides (meaning more than 1 failed checkride), then your not furloughed - your fired - on the spot. That's why recurrent training is so important.
 
He never said that he was furloughed due to that "busted" sim checkride. I think he was giving an example that NDB approaches are still tested at all levels, not just in a C172, and followed up with that individual's credentials.
 
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