S.3048, allows management to use CVR's against pilots!

It's hard not too. Wouldn't you agree?

Agree. But we have to make an honest assessment of our own culpability as pilots (in a general sense), and then prove how current mitigation measures already in place work, in order to defeat something like this from happening.

These dumb "solutions" don't just come from thin air. They're usually huge overreactions to problems which exist, but are far smaller in scope than what the "saviors" who create this crap try to push.
 
Not really a dumb post. Lets face it, a few bad apple pilots/crews have made it tough on the rest. Unfortunately, in this soceity (not just in aviation), one person poops, and everyone gets made to wear diapers.

I don't necessarily agree in having that legislation, but lets not jump on the bandwagon that some incidents haven't been a catalyst for this kind of legislation to keep rearing its ugly head.

Poop analogies aside, and I love poop, lawmakers should just make a law that crashes are illegal and that they have to stop. Also that acting unprofessional is illegal and that you must stop doing anything that causes a detriment to safety.

Of course, when you arrange stupidity in that fashion, every moron (that can vote) can see what a worthless law that is. Neither idiots making laws, nor idiots championing laws, makes any sort of substantive contribution.

I'm sure Polar said it much better than I did above.
 
Agree. But we have to make an honest assessment of our own culpability as pilots (in a general sense), and then prove how current mitigation measures already in place work, in order to defeat something like this from happening.

These dumb "solutions" don't just come from thin air. They're usually huge overreactions to problems which exist, but are far smaller in scope than what the "saviors" who create this crap try to push.
Then what is the best reaction for this? Obviously giving employers the ability to search the CVR and FDR is not the best option. What could people live with and what is going to far? Too many questions. While I have no problem with having a CVR and FDR in every airplane, that also boils down to the fact that if I screwed up, I deserve to be wrong.

I think the NTSB should be able to look at the cockpit, but that's it. I have no problem with the company downloading data from the FDR, to be used for training purposes, and with the current bill this could be spread all across commercial air carriers.
 
Then what is the best reaction for this? Obviously giving employers the ability to search the CVR and FDR is not the best option. What could people live with and what is going to far? Too many questions. While I have no problem with having a CVR and FDR in every airplane, that also boils down to the fact that if I screwed up, I deserve to be wrong.

I think the NTSB should be able to look at the cockpit, but that's it. I have no problem with the company downloading data from the FDR, to be used for training purposes, and with the current bill this could be spread all across commercial air carriers.

The best reaction is exactly what we're doing. Fighting it.

My point I'm making is, that in some ways and with certain incidents, we don't make it easy on ourselves for stuff like this to not keep coming up and us keeping having to fight it over and over.

That's my only point. There are some who seem to think that this stuff comes out of thin air, and as I said before, these kind of legislations are severe overreactions to problems that are very small in scope when compared to the severe amount of safe flying that does go on in the biz.
 
After the company I am at voted ALPA on property, management "fired" the first 4 MEC Chairman for perceived SOP violations. All 4 of them got their jobs back but they were out of work fighting it for a year or so each.

How easy would it be for the company to take a COMPLETELY out of context snippet of conversation from a CVR to fire anybody they didn't like?
 
After the company I am at voted ALPA on property, management "fired" the first 4 MEC Chairman for perceived SOP violations. All 4 of them got their jobs back but they were out of work fighting it for a year or so each.

How easy would it be for the company to take a COMPLETELY out of context snippet of conversation from a CVR to fire anybody they didn't like?

It would be far too easy. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see something like that happen. The CVR should be off limits to the company - just because you work for them, doesn't mean you have to surrender all of your rights.
 
If I understand the CVR correctly, the company doesn't have rights to it; the NTSB does, and only in the event of an accident.

My understanding is also that the reason ALPA backed CVR's was because the company couldn't get their hands on them.
 
To add to my previous post.

Management already has access to data that will prevent accidents via the FOQA and ASAP program.

To Senator Grandstand's dismay, neither true safety program protects pilots from the willful violations and disregard to procedures to which he, and skydog2, allude to.

The longer I am in this series of jobs we string together to make a career, the general public's ignorance to what we do never ceases to astound me.

No matter what, they only look at our time off, and use that as an excuse to expose us to things no one else would tolerate.

OSHA requirements that almost every other workplace subscribes to? Not us. Even the most basic desk jobs fall under these rules. Probably even Senator Grandstand and skydog2. That is just one example I can think of off of the top of my head. If I stopped for a minute and put any thought into it, I'm sure there would be an extensive list.

They pull this "legislation" under the guise of public safety. However, on the other hand, it is fine that we work 16+ hour shifts. It is also OK that our employers are not required to provide food and water on the job. But, it IS OK in the eyes of some, that we are snooped on.

Let's say Senator Grandstand's bill passes. Then what? What are the parameters of monitoring CVRs? What flights? How long?

And the one that employers really care about...Who pays for this? Say a plane averages 10 hours of block a day. Delta has 600 airplanes. That's 6000 hours of analysis a day required. And you can't have average joe analyze this data. You need someone well versed in operations and THAT specific company's procedures.

Let's say you have someone that works 8 hours a day (they are only productive for 7+00 since they are afforded a time without working for lunch.). That's about 858 people for Delta to hire. That's 1,784,640 man hours a year. Say the average salary is $30,000 (which would be less than 50% of what that job is worth with the prerequisites), that's a budget of $25,740,000 just for salary. Add 30% for employer provided benefits, and it's $33,462,000.

Oh, then you need to add for vacations (2 weeks a year = 80 hours per employee to be covered), so that's about 33 people to cover vacation time alone. Then there's sick leave and FMLA and other leaves that are granted per federal law for office workers that are only provided to airline pilots via the contract, as the federal law has us carved out.

Don't forget holidays too.

That's just Delta.

Of course, if you're not going to analyze every minute of every CVR, then you're just targeting certain people, or flights. And you'll have a small sample rate, then you're defeating the purpose of the bill. It will just turn into another ineffective rule used purely for punitive purposes.
 
To add to my previous post.

Management already has access to data that will prevent accidents via the FOQA and ASAP program.

To Senator Grandstand's dismay, neither true safety program protects pilots from the willful violations and disregard to procedures to which he, and skydog2, allude to.

The longer I am in this series of jobs we string together to make a career, the general public's ignorance to what we do never ceases to astound me.

No matter what, they only look at our time off, and use that as an excuse to expose us to things no one else would tolerate.

OSHA requirements that almost every other workplace subscribes to? Not us. Even the most basic desk jobs fall under these rules. Probably even Senator Grandstand and skydog2. That is just one example I can think of off of the top of my head. If I stopped for a minute and put any thought into it, I'm sure there would be an extensive list.

They pull this "legislation" under the guise of public safety. However, on the other hand, it is fine that we work 16+ hour shifts. It is also OK that our employers are not required to provide food and water on the job. But, it IS OK in the eyes of some, that we are snooped on.

Let's say Senator Grandstand's bill passes. Then what? What are the parameters of monitoring CVRs? What flights? How long?

And the one that employers really care about...Who pays for this? Say a plane averages 10 hours of block a day. Delta has 600 airplanes. That's 6000 hours of analysis a day required. And you can't have average joe analyze this data. You need someone well versed in operations and THAT specific company's procedures.

Let's say you have someone that works 8 hours a day (they are only productive for 7+00 since they are afforded a time without working for lunch.). That's about 858 people for Delta to hire. That's 1,784,640 man hours a year. Say the average salary is $30,000 (which would be less than 50% of what that job is worth with the prerequisites), that's a budget of $25,740,000 just for salary. Add 30% for employer provided benefits, and it's $33,462,000.

Oh, then you need to add for vacations (2 weeks a year = 80 hours per employee to be covered), so that's about 33 people to cover vacation time alone. Then there's sick leave and FMLA and other leaves that are granted per federal law for office workers that are only provided to airline pilots via the contract, as the federal law has us carved out.

Don't forget holidays too.

That's just Delta.

Of course, if you're not going to analyze every minute of every CVR, then you're just targeting certain people, or flights. And you'll have a small sample rate, then you're defeating the purpose of the bill. It will just turn into another ineffective rule used purely for punitive purposes.

:love: I love you, man!!! :clap: :yourock:

Yet another excellent Polar post!
 
Me too! ;)

I sent stuff out to my legislators from that other 'secret-handshake' society we belong to. Got a couple replies...however, none of them addressed my concerns at all. Nothing but form letters regarding everything BUT what I specifically wrote about.

I've been voting against the idiots in my state for years. The sheeple just keep voting them in. What really irks me is when I politely request a reply and still don't get one or get one completely off topic like you did. Another problem is the Senate/House email system sucks as you have to use a web form, and no attachments or formatting are allowed...It is definately setup to discourage people. I usually email them and snail mail or fax it to them as well.

Playing the devil's advocate...

And why shouldn't management be allowed to do this? They employ you. They PAY you to pilot THEIR airplanes. Their entitled to know if you are piloting their airplanes they way they want you to . They have a right to know if you are out there screwing around, abusing their equipment, wasting fuel, and otherwise not performing the job they pay you to do to the best of your ability.

How many pilots do you know have done something stupid in an airplane that got them killed? (Pinncle 3701) How many pilots have gone out there and not used the most efficient fuel conservation practices (Eastern's "Have a ton of fun")? How many pilots have staged slowdowns (United summer of hell) or sickouts (American/Reno Air merger)? The way I see it, this is pilots' bad behaviors coming home to roost.

Now, I tend to agree with others' assessments that this is not the best move for safety. I'm definately not wild about the precedent that will be set if this law passes. But in a lot of ways, pilots brought this on themselves. By trying so hard to keep management out of "your business" (so-called), you instead have gotten the government involved. Up to now, the only thing keeping this from happening was contract language. The law of the land pretty much trumps that.

I'd rather no one be watching, but if forced to make a choice I'd rather it be management, not government.

I completely disagree that pilots brought this on themselves. Anyone that looks at flights over a defined period of time can spot a captain or crew that isn't following procedures. If you are out there off profile consistantly your fuel burns alone will stickout like a sore thumb. Also many planes and the companies that have FOQA will know if do something stupid or exceeded a limit...

What do you think will actually happen if this gets through, ASAP, ASRS, etc reports may/will decrease. CRM in the cockpit will be at a bare minimum. Do you think a FO will ask that question about something he isn't sure about? Nope....

After the company I am at voted ALPA on property, management "fired" the first 4 MEC Chairman for perceived SOP violations. All 4 of them got their jobs back but they were out of work fighting it for a year or so each.

How easy would it be for the company to take a COMPLETELY out of context snippet of conversation from a CVR to fire anybody they didn't like?

You know it. It will also be used to bully crews by mgmt. You tell them no to something or call in fatigued they will pull tapes looking for anything. Gee you weren't yawning at all and called in fatigued...

We saw that you were 251 kts below 10K, we are going to have to self disclose that to the FAA...

To add to my previous post.

Management already has access to data that will prevent accidents via the FOQA and ASAP program.

To Senator Grandstand's dismay, neither true safety program protects pilots from the willful violations and disregard to procedures to which he, and skydog2, allude to.

The longer I am in this series of jobs we string together to make a career, the general public's ignorance to what we do never ceases to astound me.

No matter what, they only look at our time off, and use that as an excuse to expose us to things no one else would tolerate.

OSHA requirements that almost every other workplace subscribes to? Not us. Even the most basic desk jobs fall under these rules. Probably even Senator Grandstand and skydog2. That is just one example I can think of off of the top of my head. If I stopped for a minute and put any thought into it, I'm sure there would be an extensive list.

They pull this "legislation" under the guise of public safety. However, on the other hand, it is fine that we work 16+ hour shifts. It is also OK that our employers are not required to provide food and water on the job. But, it IS OK in the eyes of some, that we are snooped on.

Let's say Senator Grandstand's bill passes. Then what? What are the parameters of monitoring CVRs? What flights? How long?

And the one that employers really care about...Who pays for this? Say a plane averages 10 hours of block a day. Delta has 600 airplanes. That's 6000 hours of analysis a day required. And you can't have average joe analyze this data. You need someone well versed in operations and THAT specific company's procedures.

Let's say you have someone that works 8 hours a day (they are only productive for 7+00 since they are afforded a time without working for lunch.). That's about 858 people for Delta to hire. That's 1,784,640 man hours a year. Say the average salary is $30,000 (which would be less than 50% of what that job is worth with the prerequisites), that's a budget of $25,740,000 just for salary. Add 30% for employer provided benefits, and it's $33,462,000.

Oh, then you need to add for vacations (2 weeks a year = 80 hours per employee to be covered), so that's about 33 people to cover vacation time alone. Then there's sick leave and FMLA and other leaves that are granted per federal law for office workers that are only provided to airline pilots via the contract, as the federal law has us carved out.

Don't forget holidays too.

That's just Delta.

Of course, if you're not going to analyze every minute of every CVR, then you're just targeting certain people, or flights. And you'll have a small sample rate, then you're defeating the purpose of the bill. It will just turn into another ineffective rule used purely for punitive purposes.

Well said again Polar. :yourock::yeahthat:
 
Well, Mike D got the point I was trying to make.

Now, as far as management listening to CVR tapes...I believe they're entitled to. They've a right to monitor the performance of the employees that they're paying. That does NOT mean that I am in favor of it. I think it's foolish. I think it will be expensive. I think safety and CRM will suffer. But...it's their airplane and they're paying me to fly it. They've a right to know that I'm doing it the way they want me to (consistent with safety and legality, of course).

I'm not afraid of the boss. All he can do is fire me. I'm terrified of what the government might do.
 
Union dues do not go to political funds. I prefer it that way.

The political action committee is kept separate. ATN Pilot can explain much more.

Yep, the law prevents us from using dues revenue for political contributions. All political contributions have to be from voluntary funds to a political action committee (PAC). ALPA-PAC contributes to candidates on both sides of the aisle who support pilot issues. It has helped us gain tremendous influence in DC, and it's well worth every dollar. Every ALPA member should contribute.

After the company I am at voted ALPA on property, management "fired" the first 4 MEC Chairman for perceived SOP violations. All 4 of them got their jobs back but they were out of work fighting it for a year or so each.

How easy would it be for the company to take a COMPLETELY out of context snippet of conversation from a CVR to fire anybody they didn't like?

One of AirTran's executives was in senior management at New York Air back in the day, and he gained some notoriety by having the Chief Pilot pull CVRs at random to listen in on crews to find out if they were talking about getting a union on property. Those that were found to be discussing it were "counseled."

Management can't ever be trusted with this sort of information. Ever.

If I understand the CVR correctly, the company doesn't have rights to it; the NTSB does, and only in the event of an accident.

Not quite. The CVR is considered to be the property of the company. However, in the event of an accident, the NTSB has first rights to it. If you don't have contract protections that prevent management from listening, then they have every right to do so under the current law. This proposed legislation seeks to abrogate our contractual protections to allow management to listen to us, despite what our contracts have to say. It is rumored that SkyWest management has already begun to randomly listen to a small number of CVRs to evaluate the possibility of a wider program. Unlike the ATA, the RAA is supporting this nonsense because it's a way for them to deflect attention away from their deplorable hiring, training, and safety practices.

Now, as far as management listening to CVR tapes...I believe they're entitled to.

As I've said before, and as you prove time and time again, people like you are the reason we need unions.
 
Now, as far as management listening to CVR tapes...I believe they're entitled to. They've a right to monitor the performance of the employees that they're paying.

They already have the right to monitor us. And it IS exercised.

But how, you might ask.

Good question.

See, they have the ability to monitor our conversations any time they want. They have priority to ride the jumpseat any time they want.

OK, it's not feasible to ride each and every jumpseat in the same manner it's not feasible to listen to each and every minute of CVR tape.

So, what's left? Sampling of course!!

How can they do that you ask?

Another stellar question!!!

Let's make a list!! I love lists! In fact, I'm taking a break from making a spreadsheet so my head doesn't explode!!

1) Required Yearly line checks
2) Random Line Checks
3) Standardization Checks
4) Recurrent training programs, done under Appendix H or AQP. Most excellent
5) FOQA - already being pushed by the FAA. Wow!! Reams of data from each and every flight with enough data points to show trending information on operation of the aircraft, or heaven forbid, systemic problems in the SOP revisions.
6) ASAP
7) FAA Enforcement Action
8) FAA Operational Action
9) FAA oversight
10) ATOS

Again, just off the top of my head. The funny thing? Most carriers don't care enough to staff their standards departments properly to gather enough data points as it stands.

Suuuuuper!!:nana2:







:tmyk:
 
If someone can show me one instance where monitoring or downloading CVR data after the fact would have stopped an accident, that would be helpful. Fact is, there's nothing the CVR can really tell you that FOQA data can't. I'm all for FOQA data to aid the company in determining if the aircraft are being flown to standards. Why am I for this and against CVR monitoring? Because FOQA is de-identified, where as this is specifically targetted for the company to go after certain individuals. That's a slippery slope none of us want to start down. I wouldn't put it past my company to attempt to use FOQA data to hang people that are vocally outspoken against company policies. Handing them CVR data with a crew complaining about the fatigue policy at FL240 would be like handing them filet mignon on a silver platter. As Polar has already pointed out, FOQA already gives us tons of data. Several positive improvements have come about at Pinnacle lately thanks to FOQA or ASAP. Start monitoring CVRs, and my bet is those programs will go bye-bye. See, they're jointly agreed upon by the company and the union. My guess? The union will pull the plug on if CVR monitoring starts occurring.

If this were a legitimate safety improvement, I'm cool with it. I don't see how this would improve safety over measures we already have. Orwell's pretty much already shown in literature how monitored society doesn't really work more efficiently. Let's not make it reality.
 
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