S.3048, allows management to use CVR's against pilots!
- Thread starter saxman
- Start date
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
What if the CVR or FDR are deferred?
Sure can, just not both together
FDR can be MEL'd
- the CVR is operational
- if the plane isn't disptached from a mx base unless
- the failure occured after pushback but prior to takeoff
- the FDR repair was attempted but failed
- if the repair failed the aircraft may be dispatched until retruns to a mx base where it must be repaired
- Repairs must be made with in 3 flight days
- FDR is operating normally
- repairs are made within 3 days
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Yep. I'm sure there are some airlines out there that don't have them as MELs, but here, if you can fly with it broken, you can sure bet we'll have it in the MEL. Like Bandit Driver said, a condition of a deferred FDR is the CVR must be operational, and vice versa.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Me too!
I sent stuff out to my legislators from that other 'secret-handshake' society we belong to. Got a couple replies...however, none of them addressed my concerns at all. Nothing but form letters regarding everything BUT what I specifically wrote about.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Last time I wrote my Senator about something, I got a form e-mail back. Now I keep getting "Keeping in touch with my office" e-mails as well as campaign updates for his re-election. Sorry, dude. At this point, I'm voting for the OTHER guy, and I don't even know who it is yet.
braunpilot
What day is it?
While I appreciate the fact that 121 guys are mad. This bill can cover 135 as well. I don't see why ALPA and NBAA don't get together on this one and work. The bill covers "air carriers".
Why not use whatever resources you can?
Why not use whatever resources you can?
Playing the devil's advocate...
And why shouldn't management be allowed to do this? They employ you. They PAY you to pilot THEIR airplanes. Their entitled to know if you are piloting their airplanes they way they want you to . They have a right to know if you are out there screwing around, abusing their equipment, wasting fuel, and otherwise not performing the job they pay you to do to the best of your ability.
How many pilots do you know have done something stupid in an airplane that got them killed? (Pinncle 3701) How many pilots have gone out there and not used the most efficient fuel conservation practices (Eastern's "Have a ton of fun")? How many pilots have staged slowdowns (United summer of hell) or sickouts (American/Reno Air merger)? The way I see it, this is pilots' bad behaviors coming home to roost.
Now, I tend to agree with others' assessments that this is not the best move for safety. I'm definately not wild about the precedent that will be set if this law passes. But in a lot of ways, pilots brought this on themselves. By trying so hard to keep management out of "your business" (so-called), you instead have gotten the government involved. Up to now, the only thing keeping this from happening was contract language. The law of the land pretty much trumps that.
I'd rather no one be watching, but if forced to make a choice I'd rather it be management, not government.
And why shouldn't management be allowed to do this? They employ you. They PAY you to pilot THEIR airplanes. Their entitled to know if you are piloting their airplanes they way they want you to . They have a right to know if you are out there screwing around, abusing their equipment, wasting fuel, and otherwise not performing the job they pay you to do to the best of your ability.
How many pilots do you know have done something stupid in an airplane that got them killed? (Pinncle 3701) How many pilots have gone out there and not used the most efficient fuel conservation practices (Eastern's "Have a ton of fun")? How many pilots have staged slowdowns (United summer of hell) or sickouts (American/Reno Air merger)? The way I see it, this is pilots' bad behaviors coming home to roost.
Now, I tend to agree with others' assessments that this is not the best move for safety. I'm definately not wild about the precedent that will be set if this law passes. But in a lot of ways, pilots brought this on themselves. By trying so hard to keep management out of "your business" (so-called), you instead have gotten the government involved. Up to now, the only thing keeping this from happening was contract language. The law of the land pretty much trumps that.
I'd rather no one be watching, but if forced to make a choice I'd rather it be management, not government.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Sure, don't they also have a right to make sure you're not degrading your performance by what you do in your private life? After all, they have a big investment in you. And consider their healthcare liabilities. Put down that beer, Maverick, you might get sick. And those little airplanes you like to fly? The actuaries don't like those, dangerous. They gotta go.
The argument is absurd. If you want to live in a surveillance society, by all means narc on yourself when you do something stupid, but keep me out of it.
I DON'T want to live in a surveillance society. My point is, in a lot of ways, the professional pilot community has brought this on themselves.
moocowtex
Well-Known Member
Why shouldn't management be allowed to do this?? Really??
As far as I know, a line check airman or FAA inspector is available to ride my jumpseat anytime he wants (and they occasionally do). It's never bothered me, but then again, they are there with me, experiencing the same dynamic environment in real time. Now, you take snippets of what is said in a cockpit on a typical flight, and listen to them in a cubicle 1500 miles away a week later, I guarantee you'll have some questions as to why certain things were said or done. When you're not there for "the big picture", an awful lot could be misconstrued. I'm certainly not naive enough to believe that there aren't random crews that aren't exercising the highest degree of professionalism, but from my experience, it's a pretty small number. And usually these guys are pretty well known by their fellow pilots! So you now want to put every pilot in jeopardy of company harassment from someone who wasn't even in the cockpit so you can nail the guy talking about cheating on his taxes at 8000 feet? How would these CVR audits have prevented any of these 121 air carrier crashes?? THEY WOULDN'T HAVE!! It's another knee-jerk reaction that ignores the real problem, but makes everyone feel better. I'll support this measure just as soon as every Congressman and Senator agrees to have all conversations, meetings and phone calls of theirs taped and released.
I'll put my soapbox away now.
As far as I know, a line check airman or FAA inspector is available to ride my jumpseat anytime he wants (and they occasionally do). It's never bothered me, but then again, they are there with me, experiencing the same dynamic environment in real time. Now, you take snippets of what is said in a cockpit on a typical flight, and listen to them in a cubicle 1500 miles away a week later, I guarantee you'll have some questions as to why certain things were said or done. When you're not there for "the big picture", an awful lot could be misconstrued. I'm certainly not naive enough to believe that there aren't random crews that aren't exercising the highest degree of professionalism, but from my experience, it's a pretty small number. And usually these guys are pretty well known by their fellow pilots! So you now want to put every pilot in jeopardy of company harassment from someone who wasn't even in the cockpit so you can nail the guy talking about cheating on his taxes at 8000 feet? How would these CVR audits have prevented any of these 121 air carrier crashes?? THEY WOULDN'T HAVE!! It's another knee-jerk reaction that ignores the real problem, but makes everyone feel better. I'll support this measure just as soon as every Congressman and Senator agrees to have all conversations, meetings and phone calls of theirs taped and released.
I'll put my soapbox away now.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Should we monitor every profession that has had the same?
Perhaps watch teachers every day since plenty have engaged in unsavory behaviour with students?
I mean it would only be appropriate. The kids are the future. We could also use that information for quality control. You know, maybe a teacher makes a mistake. Say they misspell a word on the board. Such sloppy work shouldn't be tolerated. We could send them off for retraining. Or maybe they are using too much humor in class. We could just fire them.
How about each and every financial worker, you know, with all of the pyramid schemes and insider trading problems?
Then we can watch and if someone makes an ill-timed trade losing money instead of making it, they can be let go on the spot.
I'm not sure how long you were an airline pilot, but I've seen enough of your posts to think we're all a bunch of unprofessional cowboys.
The safety of the CVR is the fact that it's "invisible" to most pilots. It actually allows an accident investigation some access to see what really goes on.
But giving management carte blanch to review the recorders and terminate pilots for a "lack of performance" opens many doors. I really have no problem with any FAA inspector, checkairman, or anyone else riding in my cockpit.
However, the congress passing a law allowing an employer to terminate for a, at best, very loosely defined term? There are many, many examples of how that can go pear-shaped in a hurry. Actually, a friend of mine works for a carrier that is newly-union. That airline terminated 13 pilots for speaking badly about it online. How do I know it's 13? The company took the uniforms back, sent them to the dry-cleaners and have them now hanging in a room in their training facility as a warning/trophy. I wouldn't have believed it unless I trusted him so much and saw the picture.
EDIT to ADD: I'm not sure if you know this or not, and from your post probably not. Airlines with ASAP and FOQA programs (which are being required) already have all that data. In the ASAP program you have the ability to take pilots off line, and fix what needs to be fixed (should it take more than counseling). So much of what Sen. Grandstand proposes is already there, minus the time machine back to draconian (or Chinese, if you prefer) labor laws.
upup89
Well-Known Member
Its stuff like this that makes you wonder why the heck we bother electing these guys in the first place. If he wants to monitor everything pilots say in the cockpit then he better introduce a bill that monitors everything a senator says as well. Hopefully this won't go any further.
and skydog2 I have to disagree with you that pilots brought this on themselves.
and skydog2 I have to disagree with you that pilots brought this on themselves.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Your point is based on a faulty assumptions. Your point only serves to preach to the choir, unfortunately, the choir isn't behind you singing Amen.
Nigel Croker
Well-Known Member
I know we all have made crazy dumb posts before, and some would argue that I have also
...but I think its time we start the Daily JC "Dingbat" post of the day award. I"ll start off by nominating Skydog2 . If I acctually thought you believed the garbage you posted I'd be worried.....
...but I think its time we start the Daily JC "Dingbat" post of the day award. I"ll start off by nominating Skydog2 . If I acctually thought you believed the garbage you posted I'd be worried.....
I know we all have made crazy dumb posts before, and some would argue that I have also
Not really a dumb post. Lets face it, a few bad apple pilots/crews have made it tough on the rest. Unfortunately, in this soceity (not just in aviation), one person poops, and everyone gets made to wear diapers.
I don't necessarily agree in having that legislation, but lets not jump on the bandwagon that some incidents haven't been a catalyst for this kind of legislation to keep rearing its ugly head.
braunpilot
What day is it?
It's hard not too. Wouldn't you agree?