Rough terrain engine failure - lake or trees?

BobDDuck said:
You're pretty much going to die.
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In the water, your odds are actually pretty good. 50 degrees is not really all that cold, you'll survive at least an hour at that temperature.

If you can keep it less than 100 yards from shore, the swim is certainly a good shot.

Someone seems to put a light aircraft in the drink about every 6 months around here. When it is slow and controlled, and can't remember anyone not getting out.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
In the water, your odds are actually pretty good. 50 degrees is not really all that cold, you'll survive at least an hour at that temperature.
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It's not the water temperature that will get you, although most people won't last more than a few minutes at 50 degrees, but rather the danger of the gear catching and cartwheeling the plane.
 
I'd go for the powerline / possible clearing option if you can make it...Even if I were to survive the water landing, the best way for rescuers to find you just sank into the lake (unless you were close to shore). Plus, as someone stated, if you put it into the trees, open up the tanks and start a fire, if you can survive that and get out, you're now A. Warm, and B. Just started one hell of a smoke signal.
 
rframe said:
You're about 3,000' AGL over remote terrain in a fixed-gear single when you engine fails, producing no power. The picture attached is what you see out your wind screen.
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Since this question is based heavily on what is really out the window, any chance we could get GPS coordinates for this location? Perhaps Bing or Google Maps has a decent 45 degree shot of this area that is an actual photograph to get a better idea of what the area looks like.
 
From living in the same area I believe this is in the Lake Pend Oreille area of Idaho which is a man made lake that makes it so deep with no real shore line. A lot of the places around the lake are vertical cliffs that go down for hundreds of feet.

With the talks about powerline in the distance I think he is talking about the Echo Bay area of the lake here:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=lake...214,0.084543&hnear=Lake+Pend+Oreille&t=h&z=14

What I worry about is the winds as well shifting in the mountain environment and trying to stretch a glide to get to the power lines.
 
Yeah that screen shot was of Echo Bay. It was mostly just an illustration to help visualize the idea, not so much a question about the specific spot. The idea is how to evaluate different less-than-ideal rough terrain landing options when those are all that's available. Since there are some additional advantages/disadvantages to different options that aren't apparent at first glance, it's one of those things I like to think about so that if faced with a decision I already have some of that thought process done.
 
rframe

I understand that the purpose of this thread is to discuss the scenario that you put out there. Are there other options available for you? Say getting a plane with two windmills out front instead of one, a retractable gear plane (water landing), flying higher, or modifying the route so you do have a reasonable area to set down (ie a road, field, etc.)?

Mark
 
Markf64 said:
rframe

I understand that the purpose of this thread is to discuss the scenario that you put out there. Are there other options available for you? Say getting a plane with two windmills out front instead of one, a retractable gear plane (water landing), flying higher, or modifying the route so you do have a reasonable area to set down (ie a road, field, etc.)?

Mark
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All good options when available. The vast majority of pilots based here are operating fixed gear singles and may be operating into some backcountry strips or doing some operation that keeps them relatively low.

I teach students to always have a plan, where are you going if the engine fails, and in some of the places we fly you spend some time with an uncomfortable feeling knowing that there isn't a great option. I teach them that if that feeling isn't in their stomach then they are not paying attention to the reality of the moment and they are not doing their full job as PIC.

Sometimes you simply have to accept the higher risk if you want to fly in an area and that's OK if you and your passengers understand and accept the risk. But, I think it needs to be a conscious decision, and I dont like the idea of people flying into a situation they dont understand and have a plan to deal with. Some risk is not acceptable to me, like single engine over the mountains at night is rarely acceptable to me.

I have a feeling there is more that can be done to understand and teach emergency landings in rough terrain, and I'm trying to formulate more ideas and material on that, so when we're in that situation there is at least a plan to maximize chance of survival and rescue. This is not to say I want to build a false-sense of confidence and encourage people to fly into higher risk situations, but rather increase their understanding of options when they do choose to operate in those areas.
 
BobDDuck said:
You're pretty much going to die.

The lake is a bad bet. Chances are the plane will flip and unless you've got dunker training, especially with the cold water, you probably won't survive.

That said, most light singles, you can stall out into a tree and walk away with nothing more than a broken nose if you are lucky.
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This, if its retract I am going for the water but in a fixie, Tree tops... EVERY TIME, 100% of the time! I used to actually teach lessons on this as an instructor.
 
I've heard of very few successful ditchings.....as in 0. I'd take my chances with the trees, and probably hobble away with some potentially time critical life threatening injuries. Outlook in your scenario? Pretty grim unless the god's of good luck are shining down on you.
 
///AMG said:
I've heard of very few successful ditchings.....as in 0. I'd take my chances with the trees, and probably hobble away with some potentially time critical life threatening injuries. Outlook in your scenario? Pretty grim unless the god's of good luck are shining down on you.
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What?

I've known a few people that have ditched in Hawaii and Seattle. They were all successful as in they didn't die or have to go to the hospital.
 
I remember reading a Barry Schiff article on ditching. According to information he got from the USCG, there's a 15% fatality rate for ditching.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
In light singles, just about everyone I know that has put one in the drink survived.
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I agree. Water, close to shore. Here's one that happened around here last year and was caught on tape. And for those of you making the retractable vs. fixed gear argument, this is a fixed gear C150. Just bring it in tail low and stall it in, don't give the water something to catch on and flip you (and notice in the video they never flipped).



 
The concern over flipping is a bit overblown in my opinion. So what if I end up upside down? Still plenty of time to get out.

Bigger concern is catching a wing an cartwheeling. Retract is just as susceptible.
 
The concern over flipping is a bit overblown in my opinion. So what if I end up upside down? Still plenty of time to get out.

Bigger concern is catching a wing an cartwheeling. Retract is just as susceptible.
 
I second that. Do it right, dont try to "land" on the water. Stall that wing right on the water.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
So what if I end up upside down? Still plenty of time to get out.
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Honest question, have you, or anyone here (besides the military guys!) ever tried to get out of an aircraft or vehicle that was in water and submerging? I always used to think it wasn't as hard as it sounded. After going through underwater egress training, I'd take dry land any day.

I did my training in a controlled environment with safety divers, and even then, panic sets in quickly if you're not trained. Being trapped inside an object that's going under without control, and then upsidedown is simply terrifying. It's not as easy as just hopping out of the plane unless you have a Sully landing, and even then you need to hope that no major damage occured that's allowing water into the aircraft.

My concern with the water isn't even flipping over, it's the getting out of the aircraft. There's a couple reasons I would avoid water, first would be; what if I hit the water hard enough that I end up getting knocked unconscious? Now I'm wet, and trapped in a sinking plane. Dead. Second, what if I hit the water, become injured and can't get out while the aircraft is sinking? Again, dead. I have a hard enough time getting out of a 150/172/182 on dry land, forget what it would be like if I was underwater.

I would only go for water if it was very shallow and next to the shore, otherwise if I was in a light single, I'd aim for the shortest trees I could find (which may not be possible depending on time), and slow it down as much as possible, or even stall it, right into the tops. The risk's are obviously very high for whatever you choose, land or water. However I'd rather be alive and injured on dry land, than alive and injured and now fighting a second survival situation in cold water.

Hell if I made it onto the land successfully and nobody knew I was there, I'd do my best to try and sever one of the power lines, or damage a part of it, I'm sure that would get someone to my location quick!
 
Mark815 said:
Hell if I made it onto the land successfully and nobody knew I was there, I'd do my best to try and sever one of the power lines, or damage a part of it, I'm sure that would get someone to my location quick!
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Playing with powerlines - not a smart way to stay alive long.


No, never crawled out of a submerged aircraft, but I know people that have. Did some research and the odds are on your side - 90-95% you egress the aircraft alive. Water temp and geography are your real problems.
 
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