Rough terrain engine failure - lake or trees?

drunkenbeagle said:
Did some research and the odds are on your side - 90-95% you egress the aircraft alive. Water temp and geography are your real problems.
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Yeah like I mentioned above, there are some people who I would not land in the water with (older people, bigger people, children)... people who might struggle to get out quickly and I wouldn't risk the water with them. Then there's the post crash survival issues of being cold and wet perhaps with your survival gear and ELT/PLB sunk?

It's definitely a complex issue, good to think through some of it beforehand.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
No, never crawled out of a submerged aircraft, but I know people that have. Did some research and the odds are on your side - 90-95% you egress the aircraft alive. Water temp and geography are your real problems.
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I'm all for stats as numbers are hard to argue against, but again, having been through the training, I'll still take land any day. In the example given, 50deg water and crash landing, a number of things can go wrong that will lead to drowning. Hitting the water too hard, not being strapped in properly, loose equipment in the aircraft flying around the cabin during impact, structural damage preventing the door or windows to open. I would much rather deal with a bodily injury such as a broken bone on land, than in the water. Again, both terrain choices are unforgiving, but being in cold water, in a damaged, sinking and possibly inverted aircraft, is now a whole new survival situation.

I honestly was surprised when I read "so what if I'm upside down, there's plenty of time to get out". When the water is rushing up your chest while you're still trying to figure out what the hell is going on, panic will quickly set in, and death will soon follow. On my first dunk, had it been a real situation, I would have been killed. I panicked as the module rolled and the water reached my chin, and then I struggled with my seat belt. The divers released the remainder of my belt and then threw me to the surface for another try. Start to finish it lasted about 20 seconds. It was a bit sobering knowing that I would have drowned if that was a real crash.
 
BobDDuck said:
You're pretty much going to die.

The lake is a bad bet. Chances are the plane will flip and unless you've got dunker training, especially with the cold water, you probably won't survive.

That said, most light singles, you can stall out into a tree and walk away with nothing more than a broken nose if you are lucky.
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Land inverted... Put the flip to good use! :)
 
High wing? Land, every time. I don't want to think about the mechanics of letting the plane fill with water before I can open the door.
 
Why the talk of stalling over the water? Controlled low speed crashes are still better than uncontrolled crashes right? "Fly it as far into the crash as you can" comes to mind.
 
BobDDuck said:
You're pretty much going to die.

The lake is a bad bet. Chances are the plane will flip and unless you've got dunker training, especially with the cold water, you probably won't survive.

That said, most light singles, you can stall out into a tree and walk away with nothing more than a broken nose if you are lucky.
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and when the bear or mountain lion shows up, just be able to run faster than your friend.
 
ocdflyboy said:
and when the bear or mountain lion shows up, just be able to run faster than your friend.
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A survival weapon in big bear country depends on if you're alone or with a friend.
If you are alone you should carry a sawed off shotgun loaded with slugs to try to fend off the bear.
If you are with a friend you can just carry a .22 pistol because all you need to do is shoot your friend in the foot and outrun him.
 
Honestly, I don't think I'm comfortable putting myself into that potential situation in a piston single anymore. Even Sparky Imeson eventually paid the price, and I really just don't think it's worth it. Turbocharged twin like a 310 or Navajo, no problem.
 
rframe said:
A survival weapon in big bear country depends on if you're alone or with a friend.
If you are alone you should carry a sawed off shotgun loaded with slugs to try to fend off the bear.
If you are with a friend you can just carry a .22 pistol because all you need to do is shoot your friend in the foot and outrun him.
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Note to self:

Let rframe crash land the plane with his superior flying skills, then shoot him in the foot with my own gun before he has a chance to shoot me.
 
First and foremost, prop the doors and windows open.

Secondly, go as close to the shore as possible, if the powerlines are out of reach. Carry just a knot or two of extra airspeed into the "flare" and when the mains are about 5 feet off the water (assuming something single cessna sized) just as the stall horn begins to sound, I'd apply as much backpressure as my arms can muster and do it as fast as possible. The idea is that if I can make the horizontal stabilizer dig the water first, it may turn into an anchor and the gear will hit the water mostly vertical and be much less likely to flip the airplane upside down. Do the same thing if I have to put a fixed-gear down on a snow field.
 
NewYorkophile said:
High wing? Land, every time. I don't want to think about the mechanics of letting the plane fill with water before I can open the door.
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You shouldn't necessarily need to wait, if you pop the window open, or open the door prior to landing (assuming you don't have a quick release to get rid of the door prior to ditching). Assuming you have a fairly smooth touchdown, the plane should remain generally upright, and unlike helicopters which roll over and sink like a rock, airplanes tend to float for awhile whether upright or inverted, pending no severe structural damage.
 
gotWXdagain said:
First and foremost, prop the doors and windows open.

Secondly, go as close to the shore as possible, if the powerlines are out of reach. Carry just a knot or two of extra airspeed into the "flare" and when the mains are about 5 feet off the water (assuming something single cessna sized) just as the stall horn begins to sound, I'd apply as much backpressure as my arms can muster and do it as fast as possible. The idea is that if I can make the horizontal stabilizer dig the water first, it may turn into an anchor and the gear will hit the water mostly vertical and be much less likely to flip the airplane upside down. Do the same thing if I have to put a fixed-gear down on a snow field.
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Eh, where did you read this technique? Everything I've ever read recommends to land as level as possible. The tail is going to bounce if it makes contact with the water first and then you're nose first into the drink. Yes, the gear will hydroplane and the nosewheel will probably go under before the mains, but it's more controlled and gradual.
 
UAL747400 said:
Eh, where did you read this technique? Everything I've ever read recommends to land as level as possible. The tail is going to bounce if it makes contact with the water first and then you're nose first into the drink. Yes, the gear will hydroplane and the nosewheel will probably go under before the mains, but it's more controlled and gradual.
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Never read about this technique. Landing level means carrying extra airspeed, just means you are going to flip harder and hit harder. A water landing, I would think, would necessitate bringing the airplane down basically at stall speed which is going to require a nose up attitude anyway, the only sure fire way to prevent an endo would be if you could get the tailplane of the airplane underwater first.

This discussion is mostly academic for me though, as I've never done it and in the areas that I fly, I shouldn't have to.
 
UAL747400 said:
Eh, where did you read this technique? Everything I've ever read recommends to land as level as possible. The tail is going to bounce if it makes contact with the water first and then you're nose first into the drink. Yes, the gear will hydroplane and the nosewheel will probably go under before the mains, but it's more controlled and gradual.
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A guy with a moustache ditched an Airbus A320 tail low some years ago, so there's a certain amount of wisdom to it.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
A guy with a moustache ditched an Airbus A320 tail low some years ago, so there's a certain amount of wisdom to it.
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I'm not saying you guys are wrong. Sink rate is by far the biggest factor in survival anyways. There were several articles posted here awhile ago. Anyone know where they went? They stated valid reasons to landing level vs. tail low near stall speed.
 
It seems like some people think that being underwater, upside down in a plane is easier than it actually is. If there's one thing dunker teaches you it's how disorienting being upside down really is. You reach for the door handle and it's not there. In fact, your grabbing something in the opposite direction. Meanwhile your body is telling you that if you don't get air right now your going to die. Then you start to panic and once that happens, your chances are now even more slim. I would never ditch unless I was by myself.
 
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