RJ Wars

Starting pay for Mesa CRJ FOs is over 21k.

ALPA is behind the CRJ movement? Well if you are talking about J4J, then "maybe."

But thta is accepting the fact that RJs are here and trying to keep the mainline pilots working.

I'm all for a national seniority list - one alpa!
 
Well, certainly from a business perspective, it makes absolute sense! If people are willing to do the job for peanuts, it makes sense not to pay them in caviar! Certainly can't blame Mesa the company for trying to make as much of a buck as possible.

My stitch is, at what point will the labor groups at Mesa stand up and say "enough of this"? Ornstein is no idiot. By keeping his pay rediculously low, his turnover is (well, was) incredibly high. In the hey-day before late summer 2001, you'd be amazed to find a Mesa pilot with over 3 years seniority. No one stood up and fought for a fair contract because they're going to be gone in a few years anyway.

Now suddenly, there's alot less upward movement, so now these guys are starting to realize that something needed to be done. Only problem is, while they were just "mustering through" to get to the greener pasture, a monster was being created. It was finally unleashed on them when the contract negotiations started. Suddenly, CCAir and Mesa were placed gun barrel to gun barrel and the whipsawing began. CCAir attempted to stand up to it and JO's response was basically "shut 'er down". The CCAir guys realized a bit too late that they were just a pawn to try to get the Mesa guys rattled, since their contract was comming up too.

So CCAir, having served its purpose, was uncerimoniously canned, streeting a bunch of people who promptly put additional pressure on the Mesa guys. Mesa, meanwhile, wanting to increase its revenue and fleet flexibility, wanted to put CRJ700's on the ticket. Trouble was the USAir scope clause allegedly prevented them from operating CRJ700's for USAir, with Duane Woerth at one point stating "A 70 seat airplane is no regional jet" (and I can't really blame him drawing a line in the sand... Like I said before, where does the RJ end and a mainline jet begin?). Somehow, either out of misinterpretation or creative interpretation (my money on the latter) this came out as "Mesa can't be flying CRJ700's period".

"No problem" things Mr. Ornstein the cunning businessman, and before you can say whipsaw, out of the sands in Phoenix arose Freedom Airlines, complete with shiney new CRJ700s and a pilot group represented by... no one.

Mesa pilots, seeing their new flying and their new airplanes going to this alter-ego non-union shop, went berzerk, but again, it was too late. The negotiations went from trying to improve the Mesa pilots quality of life to getting rid of that damnable Freedom Airlines, but it was like trying to chop down a mountain with the edge of your hand. Put up a fight, and all the new flying (and a fair amount of the old flying) would go to Freedom. Not a very strong good negotiating position at all. Then, in the middle of this whole deal, USAir modifies the scope clause and allows 70 seaters on the property.

Now, facing losing all the new USAir flying and Jets 4 Jobs deal to Freedom, the Mesa guys were ready to give their right nut and first born to see Freedom go away. Completely gone from the negotiation sessions were any attempt to improve quality of life. A perfect time for Ornstein to have a "momentary loss of reasoning" and, in a "fit of rage", blurt out the very thing Mesa pilots wanted; the elimination of Freedom and the integration of all Mesa arms into one contract, allowing CCAir pilots a chance to get back to work. They quickly signed up for this, and then after the dust settled, took the time to actually read the contract.

Freedom was indeed gone... But so too was any hope for a decent quality of life, especially if you were a turboprop F/O, a majority of who's crashpads were now located in the employee parking lot. F/Os were seatlocked for long periods of time, and were prevented from bidding F/O to F/O positions. If they wanted the jet (and the meager quality of life improvement the offer) they either wait until they can bid jet captain, or they bid TP captain, which still eliminates their opportunity to bid jet F/O, and now they have to wait until they can hold Jet Captain, where they work a reserve line until Jesus walks the Earth again.

Move days were elimiated. Yes, now if you are awarded a new domicile, you get... wait for it... ZERO days of move time. You finish your last day at CLT, and you start your next line in PHX in 12 hours. Good luck getting there. To complicate this further, remember those Freedom guys? Well, seems the ALPA boys don't like them all that well. Trouble is, now that they've been assimilated into the Mesa collective, you can't tell who's a Freedomite and who isn't anymore. They all wear Mesa badges. To alot of ALPA hardliners, this black flags all Mesa guys. So that jumpseat you were hoping to hop to get to work the next day might just remain empty.

So, the Mesa guys got a "take it or walk" deal, and, seeing the debris field that used to be CCAir, they folded. When faced with the tough decision to do what was right for the industry vs. what was right for them, they looked out for number one. Is it disappointing? You bet. But what would you have done?

I'm mad, no doubt about it. But who do you blame? Mesa? ALPA? George Dub-yuh? Spacemen from the planet Whatitis? Who knows... But welcome to Capitolism, boys. If people are willing to do something for nothing, don't expect that a business bent on profitability will turn down such an offer!

Can you imagine how different things would be if not one pilot signed up to work for Freedom? Now, THAT, my friends, is what a brotherhood is, and make no mistake about it. Pilots need to support one another for the greater good of the profession. Until this happens, expect worstening working conditions and lower pay and benefits.

Paul
 
pjenkins, I know what you are saying is the popular opinion of what happened, but it is not entirely true.

Remember that Freedom was originally started with the cooperation of Mesa ALPA, because the USAirways contract would not allow Mesa pilots to fly greater than 50 seat jets for ANY carrier. It turned into something else after 9-11 unfortunately.

Also, Mesa is by far not the lowest paid airline. The pay rates are exactly industry standard and adjusted annually to maintain that.

What many people fail to remember is that Mesa guarantees 70 hrs per bid period, not per month! Each bid period is 4 weeks long and the pay comes every two weeks, which is much better than twice a month!!!

It's true that work rules are not ideal, but the way the industry is going (so competitive) the union has to work with the company to stay alive. I think that Mesa ALPA and Johnny O work pretty well together and the company will survive the troubles. Other airlines may not unless they make some changes.

It would be nice if every airline would stay together and insist on great work rules, but then along comes the Gulfstreams, Great Lakes and Chautauquas who will underbid the competition. I know Mesa has that reputation but they are not bottom feeders!

I really don't understand the anti-Mesa mentality. Gosh Mesa gets more bad press on these forums than Amway. It really is not such a bad place to work, especially compared to Midway and Eagle.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Starting pay for Mesa CRJ FOs is over 21k.

ALPA is behind the CRJ movement? Well if you are talking about J4J, then "maybe."

But thta is accepting the fact that RJs are here and trying to keep the mainline pilots working.

I'm all for a national seniority list - one alpa!


[/ QUOTE ]

According to the contract pay rates that I found for an earlier thread:

3. 50 to 59 Seat Jet Aircraft
DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS + 54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $51.17 $20.47 $52.19 $20.88 $53.24 $21.30 $54.30 $21.72
2 $52.76 $27.42 $53.82 $27.97 $54.89 $28.53 $55.99 $29.10
3 $54.35 $30.59 $55.44 $31.20 $56.55 $31.83 $57.68 $32.46
4 $55.99 $31.90 $57.11 $32.54 $58.25 $33.19 $59.42 $33.85
5 $57.64 $32.85 $58.79 $33.51 $59.97 $34.18 $61.17 $34.86
6 $59.32 $33.62 $60.51 $34.29 $61.72 $34.98 $62.95 $35.68
7 $60.94 $34.07 $62.16 $34.75 $63.40 $35.45 $64.67 $36.16
8 $62.90 $34.55 $64.16 $35.24 $65.44 $35.95 $66.75 $36.66
9 $64.83 $35.04 $66.13 $35.74 $67.45 $36.45 $68.80 $37.18
10 $66.82 $68.16 $69.52 $70.91
11 $68.75 $70.13 $71.53 $72.96
12 $70.85 $72.27 $73.71 $75.19
13 $72.95 $74.41 $75.90 $77.42
14 $75.21 $76.71 $78.25 $79.81
15 $76.26 $77.79 $79.34 $80.93

First year 50 seat CRJ FO makes only ($20.47x70x13) $18627.70. That is assuming minimum guarantee (as you'd probably get as a junior reserve pilot).

BTW, I'm for a national seniority list as well. I do see some problems working it out though, since a lot of carriers have different unions (APA, UBT, SWPA, etc.). But something does need to be done. It's insane for a furloughed pilot with ten years of service to have to go back to bottom of the list at a new carrier.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Remember that Freedom was originally started with the cooperation of Mesa ALPA, because the USAirways contract would not allow Mesa pilots to fly greater than 50 seat jets for ANY carrier. It turned into something else after 9-11 unfortunately.


[/ QUOTE ]

This rings a bell.. I seem to remember this being an issue, and I thought at the time that it rather defied logic. Why should a subcontractor tell me what I can or cannot do with another subcontractor? *shrug*

I tend to guage how an airline is doing by the sentiment of their employees. Seeing as how I was one of them at one point, and I work with several other ones currently, I can say with some authority that Mesa is most certainly run to benefit the shareholders exclusively, often at the expense of the employee. Some of the things that happen there clearly support this. The move day debacle is one of many things. Now, I understand that this isn't in the contract, but it seems to me this would be an OUTSTANDING way for Mesa to generate some positive morale without incurring a huge cost. It's the little things that Mesa could do for its employees but doesn't that really steams the guys on the line.

Of all the things that concern me about Mesa, the adversarial stance management takes on seemingly everything that has to do with the outlay of cash (with the notable exception of acquiring airplanes) bothers me the most.

Paul
 
{quote]First year 50 seat CRJ FO makes only ($20.47x70x13) $18627.70. That is assuming minimum guarantee (as you'd probably get as a junior reserve pilot).

[/ QUOTE ]

You are forgetting pr diem. 1.30/hr.

Since most FOs are placed on TDY for the first six months or so they are getting 24 hr pr diem, or about $30 a day.

And pr diem is pay. I don't consider it expense money.

By the way junior pilots fly their butts off. There isn't a lot of reserve at Mesa since they do so much outbasing. Reserve lines went pretty senior at PHL (where I was a CRJ captain.)

My first full year at Mesa (on the 1900) I flew 1194 hrs. Just 6 away from timing out.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I can say with some authority that Mesa is most certainly run to benefit the shareholders exclusively, often at the expense of the employee.

[/ QUOTE ]

As it should be! Companies are NOT for the benefit of the employee (who risks nothing) but for the shareholder, who has put up his cash.

Doing things for the employees should be profit-motivated. A happier employee works harder and so on.

Certain employees at every company, Mesa included, seem to think the company exists for them, rather than vice versa.

If it will generate profits to please employees then by all means do it!

Anyway, what you are saying certainly applies to other airlines much more than Mesa. Anyone who has worked at AMR or Midway knows what true employee hostility really is. We used to call it the AMR piss off factor. No large decision was made without determining how to piss off the most employee groups, so they would fight each other rather than mgt.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Starting pay for Mesa CRJ FOs is over 21k.

ALPA is behind the CRJ movement? Well if you are talking about J4J, then "maybe."

But thta is accepting the fact that RJs are here and trying to keep the mainline pilots working.

I'm all for a national seniority list - one alpa!


[/ QUOTE ]

21K, I hop you're not saying that with any pride attached. How do you make a living on 21K? Not only is that embarassing to work for as a pro pilot, it's embarassing that it'd be supported. I have no problem with RJs, their pilots, or anything else, I just don't like Mesa airlines from the managerial perspective. But on the flip side of the coin, Mesa management pays low because there's always some sucker that'll accept that low pay because they feel they have to. Mesa would probably improve it's pay if all the suckers didn't keep supporting managements ability to do this and keep this cycle continuing. Even with the per diem attached, the pay isn't very respectable, IMO.

That's why I say there's so many more career flying jobs outside of the airlines. No matter how much I love flying, it still needs to pay the bills.

Regards J4J, I agree with you. Don't like them either.
 
The cost per available seat mile on a regional jet is significantly higher than the same seat on a B737 or MD88. Contrary to a popular misconception, crew cost is not the driving factor in seat cost. A typical MD88 cost approximately 220% more to operate than an RJ50, yet it provides approximately 300% more capacity. Regional jets are wonderful aircraft, but they no more replace a B737-800 than a B737-800 replaces a 777. The advantage of the RJ is it has lower segment cost, so if you are not serving a large community with heavy traffic, it makes sense to use a regional jet. Likewise, if traffic is heavy, you do better using a larger aircraft with lower operating costs.
 
21K is not low for starting pay for commuters. Do some checking around.

You'd be surprised how low starting pay is at regional and commuter airlines.

When I started at Eagle I was at 15k. (1995)
 
[ QUOTE ]
21K is not low for starting pay for commuters. Do some checking around.

You'd be surprised how low starting pay is at regional and commuter airlines.

When I started at Eagle I was at 15k. (1995)

[/ QUOTE ]

Naw, I should've been clearer. I was referring to 21k being low pay to live on versus how it stacks up to other starting pay.

Used to live in a crash pad with a Mesa San Juan College grad who was flying 1900s as an FO in Yuma. Think at the time he was making around 13K/year. This was 1996.

Like I said , I just don't care for Mesa, but I really can't fault them. As long as sucker pilots will take a job for beans just to build SIC hours and Total, then companies like Mesa will have no trouble paying them 21K/year.

I even would bet a paycheck that if Mesa, hypothetically, cut FO starting pay for new hires to 12K/year from the current 21K; there'd still be suckers jumping all over the opportunity to be right-seat baggage in a 1900.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The cost per available seat mile on a regional jet is significantly higher than the same seat on a B737 or MD88.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is true, but you're assuming everywhere this airplane flies there's a demand for it. Flying a 140 seat MD88 into a place like Traverse City, Michigan would be a complete waste of money, since the market doesn't demand nor will it support enough revenue to pay for the flight.

Crew cost IS a significant cost, since it's a fixed cost of operating the airplane, though I will admit on an expensive-to-operate aircraft like the MD88 crew cost isn't the highest SPM expense. On an RJ it isn't either, simply because the crew cost is so low. Logically, the RJ is a terrible money maker on its own, which is why you don't see any independant (IE revenue dependant) operators using it. The idea of the RJ is to feed mainline hubs, so if mainline can break even on the SPM cost of the RJ, they can make their money on the longer flight.

Paul
 
I don't see how you figure that. A B737 carries 120, an RJ carries 50.

B737 uses 7000lbs/hr/side
RJ uses 3000lbs

B737 pays high salaries to CA, FO and 3 FAs
CRJ pays low salaries to CA, FO and 1 FA

It is much cheaper to operate 7 RJs on a city pair per day than 3 B737s
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how you figure that. A B737 carries 120, an RJ carries 50.

B737 uses 7000lbs/hr/side
RJ uses 3000lbs

B737 pays high salaries to CA, FO and 3 FAs
CRJ pays low salaries to CA, FO and 1 FA

It is much cheaper to operate 7 RJs on a city pair per day than 3 B737s

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it? All depends on load factors.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The cost per available seat mile on a regional jet is significantly higher than the same seat on a B737 or MD88.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is true, but you're assuming everywhere this airplane flies there's a demand for it.

No, I'm not assuming anything. It doesn't matter where you fly the jet, cost is cost. The lower segment cost of a RJ makes it the aircraft of choice for smaller markets that don't support larger aircraft. Likewise, the lower cost per available seat mile makes a MD88 a better aircraft for certain markets and a 767 for others and so on and so on.


Crew cost IS a significant cost, since it's a fixed cost of operating the airplane, though I will admit on an expensive-to-operate aircraft like the MD88 crew cost isn't the highest SPM expense. On an RJ it isn't either, simply because the crew cost is so low.

You are mixing apples and oranges and assuming that because a MD88 Captain makes more than an RJ Captain that somehow the MD is a higher cost seat. That just isn't correct. The MD88 is a more productive aircraft in that it moves more people at less cost per seat than an RJ. True the RJ will fly from point A to point B for about half the cost of a MD88, but that MD88 will take about 3 times as many passengers. That is not to say that the MD88 is a better aircraft because of its lower cost per available seat mile, or that the RJ is a better aircraft because of its lower segment cost. It is really just a matter of which market you intend to serve. If it's a smaller market, the RJ makes sense, if it's a little bigger put a MD88 on it, if it's significantly bigger, then the B767 makes sense and so on and so on.


Logically, the RJ is a terrible money maker on its own, which is why you don't see any independant (IE revenue dependant) operators using it. The idea of the RJ is to feed mainline hubs, so if mainline can break even on the SPM cost of the RJ, they can make their money on the longer flight.

Well here we are essentially saying the same thing, except that in a hub spoke system, basically all the aircraft going into a hub feed the hub. Each aircraft brings with it it's on pluses and minuses. A MD88 might be the right aircraft for some markets, the 767 for others and the RJ has its market too. The crew cost are not the determining factor on which aircraft fly which markets, but it is the determining factor on which crewmembers fly the RJ.


[/ QUOTE ]
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how you figure that. A B737 carries 120, an RJ carries 50.

B737 uses 7000lbs/hr/side
RJ uses 3000lbs

B737 pays high salaries to CA, FO and 3 FAs
CRJ pays low salaries to CA, FO and 1 FA

I think you've left out quite a bit. The cost to move one passenger from point A to point B is significantly more than just the cost of fuel and the flight crew. The known facts are that the cost per available seat mile of an RJ at regional rates of pay for the flight crew is still significantly higher than the cost per available seat mile of a MD88. On the other hand, the RJ has a lower segment cost. It is for these reasons that you typically find RJs flying into smaller markets, while larger aircraft fly in larger markets.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Like I said , I just don't care for Mesa, but I really can't fault them. As long as sucker pilots will take a job for beans just to build SIC hours and Total, then companies like Mesa will have no trouble paying them 21K/year.


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't hate on Mesa or any "sucker pilots" because of their wages. Low salaries look to be the norm in these early situations. It's like that all around, so companies can give you peanuts cause the other guy is giving peanuts too.
I just can't stand the decision-makers at these regional outfits. I guess they stay in a world where everything is free LOL.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think you've left out quite a bit. The cost to move one passenger from point A to point B is significantly more than just the cost of fuel and the flight crew. The known facts are that the cost per available seat mile of an RJ at regional rates of pay for the flight crew is still significantly higher than the cost per available seat mile of a MD88. On the other hand, the RJ has a lower segment cost. It is for these reasons that you typically find RJs flying into smaller markets, while larger aircraft fly in larger markets

[/ QUOTE ]

The "known facts." Can you show me the numbers? What other variable costs are there except for fuel and crew? MX contracts are fixed. Acquisition costs? Aircraft manufacturers basically give you the first five years free.

I've had many conversations with planners, consultants and accountants for both large and small jet carriers, particularly B737-700 .vs. CRJ. I'm not too well versed on the MD88 or B717. The primary reasons given for not using CRJs:
1) Availability (hard to find them not in use!)
2) Pilot Contract Scope Clauses

I'd like to see actual costs per seat mile if anyone has them.

You might also consider that CRJs often are ramp loaded, reducing the cost further by eliminating expensive jet-ways.

Also someone mentioned load factors. The frequency of running 7 CRJs a day as opposed to 3 737s is used to increase load factor by:
1) Giving passengers more travel options.
2) No middle seats.
3) No meal service. (yeah well most 737s don't do that anymore LOL)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Like I said , I just don't care for Mesa, but I really can't fault them. As long as sucker pilots will take a job for beans just to build SIC hours and Total, then companies like Mesa will have no trouble paying them 21K/year.


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't hate on Mesa or any "sucker pilots" because of their wages. Low salaries look to be the norm in these early situations. It's like that all around, so companies can give you peanuts cause the other guy is giving peanuts too.
I just can't stand the decision-makers at these regional outfits. I guess they stay in a world where everything is free LOL.




[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with you. With all the varied factors going into low wages becoming the norm, you're right that finding the one target to chuck the spears at becomes somewhat blurred.
 
The "known facts." Can you show me the numbers?

Skywest cost per available seat mile as of October 2002:

15.3cents

Delta Air Lines cost per available seat mile as of June 2003:

10.42cents


As you can see, the CASM from a regional carrier can be significantly higher than the CASM of a major airline with highly compensated flight decks.
 
Back
Top