RJ Wars

Center_Mid

Well-Known Member
There seems to be a growing battle between major airline jet pilots and regional CRJ/ERJ pilots over scope of work and pay scales. One of my former instructors told me that the RJs are driving down the majors' salaries because the Mesas and Air Wisconsins of the world can fly shorter, traditionally mainline routes (SEA to SFO, for example) in an RJ with a lower-paid crew more cheaply than the Uniteds and US Airs flying 737s with more senior crews.

I know nothing about the airlines as a business. Is it realistic to fear that RJs will limit the pool of pilot jobs with decent pay and benefits? Will be world be divided among the "have" pilots flying the 747, 757, 767, 777, A330, A340 and then "have-nots" flying everything else? Why all the fuss?
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
It's true. RJs will replace the low frequency routes currently covered by 737s and similar.

The big guys will still be around doing the long haul stuff.

Needle, was I that instructor? I started off all my RJ classes with a demonstration of the lower costs.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
One of my former instructors told me that the RJs are driving down the majors' salaries because the Mesas and Air Wisconsins of the world can fly shorter, traditionally mainline routes (SEA to SFO, for example) in an RJ with a lower-paid crew more cheaply than the Uniteds and US Airs flying 737s with more senior crews.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right now, while demand is low, this is true.

Wait a couple years when we have traffic like a few summers ago and they'll be needing four or five RJs for every one 7X7. When that happens it will no lionger be cheaper to run RJs.

Because, now, you have four times the crew, more mechanics, more FAs, more landing fees, bottlenecks due to gate space (more airplanes into the same number of gates just doesn't work smoothly) andthel ist goes on and on.

There's a place for RJs but they wont be replacing large jets on every route.
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Because, now, you have four times the crew, more mechanics, more FAs, more landing fees, bottlenecks due to gate space (more airplanes into the same number of gates just doesn't work smoothly) andthel ist goes on and on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does working on the 777 go to more senior mechanics?

I am sure that an RJ requires less mechanics than a 777 would, thus giving evening out the work force. As for more crew, yeah they will pay more, but the RJ pilots don't get paid nearly as much as a 777 does. That would even out the money spent on crews a little bit more too.

I am not disagreeing with you pilot602 and I understand where you are coming from, but maybe the execs know more about the economics than we do (or something we don't) of a 777 vs 5 RJ's on a particular route.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
I think most of the RJ revolution is over much in due to part of the expansion of Jet Blue, SWA and quite recently, orders by Air Tran.

If Jet Blue is flying an A320 with IFE from LGB to SLC, no one in their right mind is going to pay a premium price to fly a CL-65 on the same route.

Or if Air Tran flies DCA to DFW on a brand new 737-700 (as ordered), they're going to be challenged to compete with a CL-700.

They're great turboprop replacements and I'd rather fly on a full CL-65 rather than a half-full SF-340, but JBLU is going to give the old economy carriers like Delta, American, United AND SWA a huge kick in the groin if they continue to focus on a bad product with a low cost. I really think the trend is going to be a reasonably priced economy-plus type operation.

CheeseKrystal or an In-N-Out "Double-Double"?
 

Center_Mid

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Needle, was I that instructor? I started off all my RJ classes with a demonstration of the lower costs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. Perhaps my instructor attended one of your classes. Been in Seattle lately?
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
I am sure that an RJ requires less mechanics than a 777 would, thus giving evening out the work force.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clarify, my point with the "more mechanics" line was that with more airframes you need more mechanics. Maybe one crew off a 777 could handle two or three RJs but who'll pick up the other one or two RJs?

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but maybe the execs know more about the economics than we do

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With the exception of one airline, every other one is in, near or at the very best just staying away from bankruptcy. I think these execs have only proved they know nothing about economics!
 

cointyro

New Member
Just to devil's advocate 602's remark...

just because your company is going bankrupt doesn't mean you don't understand economics. Vice versa, a knowledge of economics won't ensure success either.
 

Kingairer

'Tiger Team' Member
[ QUOTE ]


If Jet Blue is flying an A320 with IFE from LGB to SLC, no one in their right mind is going to pay a premium price to fly a CL-65 on the same route.



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I think its more the IFE then the airplane. Put a TV on a RJ and youll have the similar results. You could even say, Put a Jetblue A320 on LGB-SLC and no one in their right mind is going to fly a DC9 (sans IFE) on that same route.
 

pljenkins

Resident Knucklehead
[ QUOTE ]
One of my former instructors told me that the RJs are driving down the majors' salaries because the Mesas and Air Wisconsins of the world can fly shorter, traditionally mainline routes (SEA to SFO, for example) in an RJ with a lower-paid crew more cheaply than the Uniteds and US Airs flying 737s with more senior crews.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch! Suggesting that Mesa and Air Wisconsin are equal airlines is insulting.

Okay, let's place the blame where it belongs, since we're already comming out swinging... To dispel this whole ALPA generated "regional airlines are STEALING mainline jobs, let us not forget that this whole fire started long, long ago when, after deregulation, airlines failed to make the transition from "government funded" to "money making business". The fact that your Uniteds and Deltas and Americans have just now suddenly realized that not making a profit is a Bad Thing(tm) doesn't mean that this business constant suddenly came into being! Just ask a former Eastern, Braniff, PSA or TWA pilot or mechanic how well that contract that topped out at $245,000/yr worked out for them. Ask them how that "full pay to the last day" method of negotiation advanced their career?

Okay, I'm getting a touch off the point. forgive me, I'm genuinely angered by this. I make $29,000 as a dispatcher for Air Wisconsin. I work with other dispatchers who've been here for 2 and a half years and haven't gotten a raise, and we've been working on trying to get our first contract for the last 10 months, and it looks like it's going to be another year at least, at the rate things are going. Believe it or not, at $29,000 a year, I'm on the higher end of regional dispatcher compensation. I make over $10,000 a year more then a new Mesa F/O. I make $8000 more then a Mesa dispatcher. Thanks to Mesa and their "industry leading pilot contract", everyone from me, the regional dispatcher, to the mainline pilot loses.

In a way, this was inevitable. Jets were going to replace turboprops, and inevitably the number of seats in them were going to increase, and now with the CRJ-900s and the likes comming on board, the once bold black line that seperated the "mainline jet" from the "regional" is blurring. Trouble is, the pay-rates are not.

So, how does this get fixed? Well, it won't be. At least, not until Mesa folds in on itself, and so long as mainline carriers continue to choose cost over quality in their selection of regional carriers, this won't be any time soon. I'm no Aviation Business major, but I just can't see how subjecting your paying customers to 75% completion rates and crews that would make more managing a McDonalds, know it, act like they know it, and see home less often then an Over the Road truck driver is going to win the hearts and wallets of the flying public!

The flying public asked for it, and now they're getting it. Thanks to Mesa, we can all look forward to tired pilots, irritable agents, incompetent operations staff and maintanence done by the lowest bidder with no interest in the quality of their work other then to satisfy the letter of the law.

21 people have already paid for that.

So, before taking aim at us regional pukes who are just trying (and failing) to feed our families, perhaps one should consider what, and who, brought us to this point?

Paul
 

Center_Mid

Well-Known Member
Whoa, sorry to upset you. I am not a pro pilot and do not have an airline background at all (I'm a small business attorney).

I didn't know that lumping AW with Mesa would cause such offense, but I was writing based upon a complaint that I heard from my former instructor (he was mad because he got bumped from a SkyWest class date after 9/11 and it turned into a larger rant about airlines in general).

Go Air Wisconsin!
 

pljenkins

Resident Knucklehead
Needle...


Sorry to unload on you. It was most certainly not aimed at you. Just a years worth of banging my head against a battleship in hopes of sinking it has taken its toll.. <grin>

Paul
 

N9103M

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]

Okay, let's place the blame where it belongs, since we're already comming out swinging... To dispel this whole ALPA generated "regional airlines are STEALING mainline jobs, let us not forget that this whole fire started long, long ago when, after deregulation, airlines failed to make the transition from "government funded" to "money making business".

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry dude, but where did you get the idea that ALPA national is spouting the "Regionals are Stealing Mainline Jobs" propoganda?

That may be the opinion of some (or many) mainline pilots, but not the official position of ALPA.

Personally, I don't lilke the fact that I am flying an RJ when I have friends who flew the DC-9 at NW that are now on the street. I believe if the RJ's are going to replace mainline flying, they should be flown by mainline pilots. And that is coming from a regional CRJ pilot.

Just my .02,

--03M

I never thought I would see a pro/anti RJ thread in one of Doug's forums....
 

Sprint100

Well-Known Member
LOL!!!!!!!!! At least don't be blind to one of the ways society operates. The majority of Americans are part of the working class that looks for a deal, they may splurge a bit but not too much. Most get sold on the latest and greatest........RJ's seem to be it. Make the flight comfortable and the majority will follow. Hmmmmm, nice ride and new stuff...........
Put simply, the majority of the public has champagne taste but want to spend beer money!!!!!!!!! We(pilots) may view things differently, but think of how the gen pop does things. (Average persons thought)I don't care if it's more economical for the company to use this plane, I like this plane and this companies services.
A good example, is that I will not fly Southwest again because I hate that dreaded open-seat policy and you can tell the aircraft is old(at least the ones I've been on). Instead, I opt for Mesa or another carrier with newer aircraft and assigned seating.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
I'm no real fan of Mesa. Don't care much for their 19K FO pay. But then again, maybe that's genius business.....knowing some desperate starter in the airlines that's looking for a stepping stone to the bigwigs will actually work for that measley pay.....much less many more that have offered to even do it for free because they love flying....

Sad.
 
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