RJ program now FREE to ATP instructors
- Thread starter Trip7
- Start date
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
!I suppose, I will thoroughly enjoy reading what he has to say.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"UPS, why don't you bug out and do something useful for a change"
Geeeee. I thought my participation at this website was useful. Most seem to think it is.
Oh wait, this is the ATP forum at JC. Nevermind. Nothing I say here is credible. Carry on....
"I'm sure your a joy to fly with."
Actually, I've heard I am. Is that a surprise?
Geeeee. I thought my participation at this website was useful. Most seem to think it is.
Oh wait, this is the ATP forum at JC. Nevermind. Nothing I say here is credible. Carry on....
"I'm sure your a joy to fly with."
Actually, I've heard I am. Is that a surprise?
Clocks
Well-Known Member
You came back to this thread for the sole purpose of cutting out two sentences from a 4 day old post and making a sarcastic reply?
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"Simply put you need not to sit back and critize a CFI who is a new CFI just because they went to ATP....."
That IS simply put...
Remember, I have no problem with ATP teaching CFI's (I think I've said that a few times). I actually recommend them as a place to get a CFI (I think I've said that a few times), as it's a license to learn. ATP does a lot of CFI's, they should know how to get someone through (I think I've said that a few times).
My problem is with guys who were PPL's 90 days ago, never been outside the ATP system, who get that CFI and jump right into instructing 100 hours a month like it was nothing. No real world experience outside the academy. No time outside the ATP bubble of having your hand held.
But wait.....you can just do the RJ course, save 2K, and be an airline pilot tomorrow.
That's even worse, I think....
I just think it's sad how far the bar has been lowered.
That IS simply put...
Remember, I have no problem with ATP teaching CFI's (I think I've said that a few times). I actually recommend them as a place to get a CFI (I think I've said that a few times), as it's a license to learn. ATP does a lot of CFI's, they should know how to get someone through (I think I've said that a few times).
My problem is with guys who were PPL's 90 days ago, never been outside the ATP system, who get that CFI and jump right into instructing 100 hours a month like it was nothing. No real world experience outside the academy. No time outside the ATP bubble of having your hand held.
But wait.....you can just do the RJ course, save 2K, and be an airline pilot tomorrow.
That's even worse, I think....
I just think it's sad how far the bar has been lowered.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"You came back to this thread for the sole purpose of cutting out two sentences from a 4 day old post and making a sarcastic reply?"
Do you have a point in there somewhere?
I'm happy to jump into a debate if you have something worthy for me.
I simply respond to what folks say as best I can. From the heart. Based on my experience. Got my MEI at ATP in the mid-80's.
Besides, the Kool-aid in here makes my shoes red.
Do you have a point in there somewhere?
I'm happy to jump into a debate if you have something worthy for me.
I simply respond to what folks say as best I can. From the heart. Based on my experience. Got my MEI at ATP in the mid-80's.
Besides, the Kool-aid in here makes my shoes red.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
Nah not really. I just had to smile when I read your completely worthless sarcastic post made to defend the value of your posts
I'm not saying all your posts are worthless, but that one was, and the irony was too much to pass up. Sort of like the irony of me making worthless posts about your worthless posts
So to attempt to salvage this post, I'll contribute something to the thread.
I've flown with "bad" pilots from the university I went to, from other 141 schools, from FBOs, and from ATP. ATP certainly doesn't have a monopoly on "bad" pilots, and it has become clear to me the more people I get to train with a variety of backgrounds, that simply getting experience outside of "the academy" guarantees nothing. I just place my faith in the hope that the system, examiners, and airline training departments will eliminate those who simply shouldn't be around. If the PTS, DE's, and airline training are all failing, then it isn't ATP that you should be upset with.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"that simply getting experience outside of "the academy" guarantees nothing"
I disagree. It guarantees you have experience outside the academy. And that's worth something. At least I think so. Maybe not in your experience, but surly in mine.
"If the PTS, DE's, and airline training are all failing, then it isn't ATP that you should be upset with."
There is no doubt that the standards should be higher. The PTS has never changed. It's just that guys didn't go from commercial PTS to right seat of a jet airliner until recently. ATP has enabled that. Along with the regionals that are so hungry for pilots that they well take a wet commercial.
There is no doubt the bar has been lowered. That it's a good idea that the bar is so low is up for debate, I guess. I don't think it's a good thing.
I disagree. It guarantees you have experience outside the academy. And that's worth something. At least I think so. Maybe not in your experience, but surly in mine.
"If the PTS, DE's, and airline training are all failing, then it isn't ATP that you should be upset with."
There is no doubt that the standards should be higher. The PTS has never changed. It's just that guys didn't go from commercial PTS to right seat of a jet airliner until recently. ATP has enabled that. Along with the regionals that are so hungry for pilots that they well take a wet commercial.
There is no doubt the bar has been lowered. That it's a good idea that the bar is so low is up for debate, I guess. I don't think it's a good thing.
To some extent you are right about that. However, how is that any different from any new CFI? And further more, the academies like UND and Riddle is the same. They have never stepped outside the academy and instructed elsewhere. Unless of course they go somewhere else. So, all the experience they're getting is all from within. ATP is doing the same thing. In that regard they are all the same, with the exception of how long the programs take.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Talk to a CFI who went through the program at UND and you'll understand. There is a problem with "the bubble" there as well, but they have a much higher standard, and expect more out of you, than the FAA mins which is what ATP is looking for. Places like FSA and UND have months long classes on how to instruct and you do a lot of practicing. It's much more in depth than "a week with Frank".
I've talked to UND CFI's and I've talked to CFI's from ATP. In fact, I got my MEI at ATP....sort of....and the two are night and day.
That said. Any ink wet CFI, no matter where they are from, is going to have a huge learning curve in front of them. It's just a little less of a curve if you train at a UND or FSA.
I've talked to UND CFI's and I've talked to CFI's from ATP. In fact, I got my MEI at ATP....sort of....and the two are night and day.
That said. Any ink wet CFI, no matter where they are from, is going to have a huge learning curve in front of them. It's just a little less of a curve if you train at a UND or FSA.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Well we can compare apples and oranges all day long..... However what we are comparing is a University Setting with a place that specializes in getting people in and out. No one ever said that ATP is the end all of Aviation. Simply put they get their S*** done and get their people out.....
Now I'm not going to get into it. I dont think UND is just an amazing place either. I dont think PU is the most amaing nor do I think someplace like the University of Ohio is lesser quality then any of the above. You will find good and bad at either place. Just because someone has classes about weather and or calc or trig doesnt make them any better of a pilot.
You can say "oh UND is amazing" and that's your right. However ATP does the same thing they produce pilots. Both pilots are just as qualified in flying the plane. Both take the same test. I Mean we can go back to the day when the DPE would not have a PTS and ask anything. You go in and fail just to get the questions then go and take it again and again until you pass, i assume you remember these days prior to the PTS? Oh that's right that's why we had to go to a PTS so we had a standarized test.
Again just like i stated when it comes to UPS..... You have great pilots i'm sure at UPS who went to UND, Purdue, Ohio University, ATP, Embry Riddle, the local mom and pop shop oh and you have crappy ones.... To each his own. Each pilot makes what they want out of their training. Just because I didnt go to UND doesnt mean they are the top dawg and better then I am. Nor since I went the local FBO route, got a degree in two things non aviation related, worked, and got my training makes me any better.
Don point of the matter is to each his own. Training is what each makes of it. I know a hell of a lot of guys who are great aviators who are from the Purdue program. I know just as many who are great that went to ATP and the local FBO. Non of which I would say are far better then the other b/c of their training. Period and you can argue if you wish but we all know its a fact, what a pilot does in their "free time" to better themselves is what defines a pilot. The extra work and studying not the program they went to. Again a 100 pilots from ATP are great, i'm sure there are 100 pilots that are crappy. 100 pilots at UND are great, i'm sure there's 100 that are crappy..... 100 at UPS aregreat, i'm sure there are 100 crappy ones too!
Care to argue?
Now I'm not going to get into it. I dont think UND is just an amazing place either. I dont think PU is the most amaing nor do I think someplace like the University of Ohio is lesser quality then any of the above. You will find good and bad at either place. Just because someone has classes about weather and or calc or trig doesnt make them any better of a pilot.
You can say "oh UND is amazing" and that's your right. However ATP does the same thing they produce pilots. Both pilots are just as qualified in flying the plane. Both take the same test. I Mean we can go back to the day when the DPE would not have a PTS and ask anything. You go in and fail just to get the questions then go and take it again and again until you pass, i assume you remember these days prior to the PTS? Oh that's right that's why we had to go to a PTS so we had a standarized test.
Again just like i stated when it comes to UPS..... You have great pilots i'm sure at UPS who went to UND, Purdue, Ohio University, ATP, Embry Riddle, the local mom and pop shop oh and you have crappy ones.... To each his own. Each pilot makes what they want out of their training. Just because I didnt go to UND doesnt mean they are the top dawg and better then I am. Nor since I went the local FBO route, got a degree in two things non aviation related, worked, and got my training makes me any better.
Don point of the matter is to each his own. Training is what each makes of it. I know a hell of a lot of guys who are great aviators who are from the Purdue program. I know just as many who are great that went to ATP and the local FBO. Non of which I would say are far better then the other b/c of their training. Period and you can argue if you wish but we all know its a fact, what a pilot does in their "free time" to better themselves is what defines a pilot. The extra work and studying not the program they went to. Again a 100 pilots from ATP are great, i'm sure there are 100 pilots that are crappy. 100 pilots at UND are great, i'm sure there's 100 that are crappy..... 100 at UPS aregreat, i'm sure there are 100 crappy ones too!
Care to argue?
GlenWimpy
Well-Known Member
NJT916
Well-Known Member
I concur. :banghead:
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Might as well just quit arguing about it all, because nobody is EVER going to WIN! You all can fight to the death on here, and DE727UPS will always hate ATP - Captain Bob and others will always defend ATP.
And those of you that keep yer mouth shut will go to ATP, graduate and get a job flying for an airline in half the time and in a year have over a thousand hours, climbed a bunch of seniority spots, become a much better pilot, have forgotten all about ATP, start seeing Don's point, but don't really care because you have a thousand hours of 121 flying right now and where you did your training means nothing at this point, you're getting bored pushing buttons and want more money for less work with more time off. Then you come back to the ATP forum and see some harsh comments about ATP, but you don't care anymore. You experienced first hand their product and they helped you get three spots ahead of the next guy on seniority because they helped you get the interview faster, so now you have weekends off while the other guy works every weekend all year. Blah Blah Blah.....
Half of you will go fly an RJ right out of school and push buttons anyway. So who gives a **** where you get your training. Wanna be a weekend warrior Joe Schomo wanna go fly fo fun in my Cezzna cuz its kewl - go train at a Mom N Pop FBO. Wanna be an airline pilot - go train at ATP. Want to dispute that comment - give me first hand experience, otherwise I'll just keep browsing on.
Don flies at UPS, with older more experienced pilots, and I respect the heck out of him for that. He's been around a lot longer then most of us in this industry, so Boomer - why not be a little more respectful. Even though Don isn't a fan of ATP, he has no first had experience flying with an ATP grad, therefore I just disregard his comments about how we all that went to ATP suck. Aside from his anti-ATP comments, I like Don. I'm sure he would be fun to fly with. Probably learn more in one day flying with then you would 10 days at a flight school. At least show him the respect he and everyone else on here deserve.
ATP = Teh SUCK Got it?
That one's for your Don.
And those of you that keep yer mouth shut will go to ATP, graduate and get a job flying for an airline in half the time and in a year have over a thousand hours, climbed a bunch of seniority spots, become a much better pilot, have forgotten all about ATP, start seeing Don's point, but don't really care because you have a thousand hours of 121 flying right now and where you did your training means nothing at this point, you're getting bored pushing buttons and want more money for less work with more time off. Then you come back to the ATP forum and see some harsh comments about ATP, but you don't care anymore. You experienced first hand their product and they helped you get three spots ahead of the next guy on seniority because they helped you get the interview faster, so now you have weekends off while the other guy works every weekend all year. Blah Blah Blah.....
Half of you will go fly an RJ right out of school and push buttons anyway. So who gives a **** where you get your training. Wanna be a weekend warrior Joe Schomo wanna go fly fo fun in my Cezzna cuz its kewl - go train at a Mom N Pop FBO. Wanna be an airline pilot - go train at ATP. Want to dispute that comment - give me first hand experience, otherwise I'll just keep browsing on.
Don flies at UPS, with older more experienced pilots, and I respect the heck out of him for that. He's been around a lot longer then most of us in this industry, so Boomer - why not be a little more respectful. Even though Don isn't a fan of ATP, he has no first had experience flying with an ATP grad, therefore I just disregard his comments about how we all that went to ATP suck. Aside from his anti-ATP comments, I like Don. I'm sure he would be fun to fly with. Probably learn more in one day flying with then you would 10 days at a flight school. At least show him the respect he and everyone else on here deserve.
ATP = Teh SUCK Got it?
That one's for your Don.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Before this thread gets tossed out with the baby (or is it with the bath water?) I don't think Don's hating on ATP. I think he's just saying that the people coming out of there don't necessarily have the flying experience that somebody who spent 300 hours of FBO flying to get their ratings or 4 years of University programs might have. I happen to think he's right. I did the ATP program and when I was CFIing for them I routinely instructed more experienced pilots who had fewer ratings then I did. I felt guilty a lot of the time as I learned much more from them then they did from me. But in the "ATP Way" they got through their checkrides (mostly), got their certificate and went back out into the real world and started building more experience.
There's nothing wrong with that as long as ATP people realize that they DON'T know it all (even with the RJ program) and are going to have to still learn a whole bunch when they get out.
There's nothing wrong with that as long as ATP people realize that they DON'T know it all (even with the RJ program
) and are going to have to still learn a whole bunch when they get out.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Good Lord....
How many times do I have to say I don't hate ATP. I'm just the only guy thats critical of ATP at this forum/site that gets shouted down on a regular basis and has no problem coming back for more...
I'm not a fan of the 90 day program, nor am I a fan of marketing the career in a manner that only tells half the story to suck people in. I'm not saying "everyone who goes to ATP sucks". That's rather general.
Heck, I even got my MEI at ATP...sort of....
I never expected a lot of respect at this part of jetcareers. The folks currently at ATP certainly don't want anyone, especially a UPS Capt, mucking things up for them and calling into question some of the things ATP does.
"You can say "oh UND is amazing" and that's your right. However ATP does the same thing they produce pilots. Both pilots are just as qualified in flying the plane. Both take the same test."
There is really no way you can compare a 90 day program grad to a 4 year UND grad. They are the same FAA ratings but there is a WHOLE lot more to consider than that. Saying a 90 day guy has absorbed as much in 90 days as a UND guy would in four years just doesn't make any sense.
"Care to argue?"
Why? Is that what we are doing? I guess so, then....
How many times do I have to say I don't hate ATP. I'm just the only guy thats critical of ATP at this forum/site that gets shouted down on a regular basis and has no problem coming back for more...
I'm not a fan of the 90 day program, nor am I a fan of marketing the career in a manner that only tells half the story to suck people in. I'm not saying "everyone who goes to ATP sucks". That's rather general.
Heck, I even got my MEI at ATP...sort of....
I never expected a lot of respect at this part of jetcareers. The folks currently at ATP certainly don't want anyone, especially a UPS Capt, mucking things up for them and calling into question some of the things ATP does.
"You can say "oh UND is amazing" and that's your right. However ATP does the same thing they produce pilots. Both pilots are just as qualified in flying the plane. Both take the same test."
There is really no way you can compare a 90 day program grad to a 4 year UND grad. They are the same FAA ratings but there is a WHOLE lot more to consider than that. Saying a 90 day guy has absorbed as much in 90 days as a UND guy would in four years just doesn't make any sense.
"Care to argue?"
Why? Is that what we are doing? I guess so, then....