RJ program now FREE to ATP instructors

Easy now, no need to get snipey. Don's views haven't changed one iota so there is no reason to get excited about it. He should be welcome and encouraged to post his opinion, which is just as valid as yours or mine, as a counter-point to all the Pro-ATP voices in this ATP forum. I don't think any of us are interested in sitting in an echo-chamber and the potential ATP students who read this forum would appreciate both sides of the story too.
I think ATP is a nice school and I think that the 90 days was enough time for me but I also agree that it may not be sufficient time for everyone. If you do well in a fast-paced very structured training environment where you must be ultimately responsible for your own education and success then ATP's 90 day course may be for you. Examples of people who do very well in ATP's program, statistically, are those whove had this kind of fast-paced type of education before, for example prior military people (enlisted or officer.)
If you are a little more unsure about finishing everything within 90 days I would recommend you look into the self-paced program. Since you set the pace yourself you can finish almost as fast as the 90 day guys if you put your mind to it, with the added benefit that nobody is putting your feet to the coals to finish finish finish. If you don't do super-well under that kind of deadline type pressure the self-paced program is great.

There are also, of course, *gasp* other schools you could go for if for some reason ATP does not fit for you. I am recommending a friend of mine look closely into White Air because his primary consideration is cost without sacrificing anything, plus he lives close to them.

As far as the RJ course goes. If anyone says it is not a benefit they're either deluding themselves or lying. Of course you're going to do it a different way when you get to whatever airline hires you, ATP knows this and they're not teaching in such a way that you'll never be able to fly a CRJ except in the "ATP way." It's like saying flying 140 hours or so in a Piper Seminole was no benefit to me flying a 310 at my school because the systems are different and the way we instruct at our school is different. It's still a multi-engine aircraft. As far as the CRJ course -- it's still a jet with an FMS. Even if you get hired at XJET and fly the ERJ with a totally different FMS -- at least you are familiar with a FMS and know about what it should do, and it's just a matter of figuring out the differences.

Now, the question is really -- is the CRJ course worth the price tag? If the price tag is zero dollars I'd say hell yes it is worth it. If the price tag is $2500 dollars I'd say ehh... I dunno, it depends? If the full price of like $6000 -- I would not recommend it. It may help but not $6000 dollars help.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
Easy now, no need to get snipey. Don's views haven't changed one iota so there is no reason to get excited about it. He should be welcome and encouraged to post his opinion, which is just as valid as yours or mine, as a counter-point to all the Pro-ATP voices in this ATP forum. I don't think any of us are interested in sitting in an echo-chamber and the potential ATP students who read this forum would appreciate both sides of the story too.
I think ATP is a nice school and I think that the 90 days was enough time for me but I also agree that it may not be sufficient time for everyone. If you do well in a fast-paced very structured training environment where you must be ultimately responsible for your own education and success then ATP's 90 day course may be for you. Examples of people who do very well in ATP's program, statistically, are those whove had this kind of fast-paced type of education before, for example prior military people (enlisted or officer.)
If you are a little more unsure about finishing everything within 90 days I would recommend you look into the self-paced program. Since you set the pace yourself you can finish almost as fast as the 90 day guys if you put your mind to it, with the added benefit that nobody is putting your feet to the coals to finish finish finish. If you don't do super-well under that kind of deadline type pressure the self-paced program is great.

There are also, of course, *gasp* other schools you could go for if for some reason ATP does not fit for you. I am recommending a friend of mine look closely into White Air because his primary consideration is cost without sacrificing anything, plus he lives close to them.

As far as the RJ course goes. If anyone says it is not a benefit they're either deluding themselves or lying. Of course you're going to do it a different way when you get to whatever airline hires you, ATP knows this and they're not teaching in such a way that you'll never be able to fly a CRJ except in the "ATP way." It's like saying flying 140 hours or so in a Piper Seminole was no benefit to me flying a 310 at my school because the systems are different and the way we instruct at our school is different. It's still a multi-engine aircraft. As far as the CRJ course -- it's still a jet with an FMS. Even if you get hired at XJET and fly the ERJ with a totally different FMS -- at least you are familiar with a FMS and know about what it should do, and it's just a matter of figuring out the differences.

Now, the question is really -- is the CRJ course worth the price tag? If the price tag is zero dollars I'd say hell yes it is worth it. If the price tag is $2500 dollars I'd say ehh... I dunno, it depends? If the full price of like $6000 -- I would not recommend it. It may help but not $6000 dollars help.
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:yeahthat:
 
DE727UPS said:
"And let it be known that Don speaks the truth always.

Don speaks from his years of experience in the biz and calls them as he sees them. I won't bore you with the details.

I just find it funny as heck that guys currently working or training at ATP, guys who had 500 hours a month ago, are trying to tell regional and major airline pilots who opine here than they have no clue. No clue on how ATP works, no clue on how pilot training should work in 2007, no clue on what the min standards should be, and certainly no clue if you are dumb enough to challenge the pro-ATP status quo here at the JC ATP fourm.

I swear, some of you guys must be getting rebates for your posts here...
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I could see some of your points.... However you yourself need to relaize if you are in the situation right now the industry has indeed changed...... Simply put you need not to sit back and critize a CFI who is a new CFI just because they went to ATP..... THat's all my point is.... YOu can have your thoughts but a new CFI period is a new CFI.... THe RJ course is beneficial for some and will help some out. Period..... HOwever even though you MADE IT and are a MAJOR pilot doesnt mean you cant be wrong..... So for you to assume that just because you are a UPS pilot doesnt mean you know EVERYTHING. And to state that some just want to get into argument is far fetched. Most want to get the accurate story and if you are removed from ATP and dont know the current story back off and let others share. However if you want to add some input feel free. Just coming in and bashing however is out of line and you as a man who has accomplished a lot should realize that. THe industry isnt the same, ATP isnt LOWERING the standards of the industry. The pilot grounds, the unions and others are the ones.... IF that's what you are upset about attack that not a place who is helping some get their start in the industry.......
 
Real fast remember one thing.... Don is speaking from what he believes I assume.... THis whole thread is about the RJ program being free now as a "reward" or compensation to instructors for giving 300 dual..... We need to remember that is something NEW and an ADDED bonus.... Therefore a 2500 bonus for instructors with the RJ course and the 500 sign on..... I think some of us are forgetting the point of this thread.
 
Paul, one of the points I (and I think Don) am trying to make is that the RJ course doesn't really have a financial value. I mean, it obviously does, as people are willing to pay up to $6000 for it, but you can't really say that ATP has increased instructor pay by $2500 as the "value" of the course in the real world is practically zero.
 
BobDDuck said:
Paul, one of the points I (and I think Don) am trying to make is that the RJ course doesn't really have a financial value. I mean, it obviously does, as people are willing to pay up to $6000 for it, but you can't really say that ATP has increased instructor pay by $2500 as the "value" of the course in the real world is practically zero.
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That that my friend is a topic that is up for debate. When discussing the "value" of the course it will come down to each person's opinion. Chief Pilots at airlines who sign these agreements for lower minimums don't think the value is zero, on the other hand, some regional pilots and major captains think its value is zero. Then AGAIN, some regional pilots think highly of the course because they received their job offer UNDER the condition that they complete the rj course. Dan Robertson, Chief Pilot at ASA, told two of my standardization classmates that he wants both of them in his office for an interview within 3 days of completing the RJ course. Its all a matter of opinion. Whether you want to follow the regional pilots and/or major pilots opinion who never the did the course, or the regional chief pilots and regional HR reps(basically the ones who will be hiring you) opinion is truly up to you:)
 
Dan Robertson is just happy to find a captive audience to grab guys to hire from. Trust me... the training departments at the regionals aren't overjoyed to have low time RJ standz guys coming through.

What ever. We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I just hope that when you do you make it to an airline, you are able to get through all the other 121 stuff that you haven't already had your hand held on.
 
My opinion is that the regional airlines like the RJ course because it makes training newhires a little easier since it is a good intro to flying a jet for the first time.

If they could hire people that paid for for the training that they themselves SHOULD be providing and PAYING the pilot to go through, of course theyre gonna require it! Its kinda like SWA requiring thier newhire pilots to have 737 type.

I agree with DE757UPS that it really isnt necissary, but if people are willing to do it, the airlines are gonna require it. Kinda like the low wages these regionals are paying...if people will work for next to nothing, the airlines are gonna pay next to nothing!
 
BobDDuck said:
. Trust me... the training departments at the regionals aren't overjoyed to have low time RJ standz guys coming through.
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Maybe, but they do hire with less flight time if you do the RJ program, so there must be something that they like about the program
 
What they like is that they get first crack at these people before they go somewhere else. Also, there is something of a screening process, as ATP is staking their "flow through" marketing on providing at least competent applicants to the airlines. It's something of a symbiotic relationship.
 
BobDDuck said:
Also, there is something of a screening process, as ATP is staking their "flow through" marketing on providing at least competent applicants to the airlines. It's something of a symbiotic relationship.
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I agree. This is where I see the program as a benefit to pilots, because for the reasons you stated the airlines offer reduced minimums to these 'competent pilots'
 
Meyers said something interesting a couple of posts prior and that was what I was trying to relay in my response to UPS.

I welcome any and all opinions. However, it seems that UPS doesn't have that much insight to ATP other than the fact that he got his atp from ATP in the 80's and the fact that he spends much of his time on these forums gathering info on stuff. That is great, I do it too-to an extent. But when I was looking into flight schools, I have spent who knows how many hours doing my research. The point is, the majority of the "facts" some KEY people are giving are merely personal and seem to be disgust because things have changed since they went through. Ok fine.

As I said earlier, I know a lot of pilots and the majority of the one's I know are ex-military guys and some have even, hold your breath, sent their kids to ALL ATP. All of them loved the program, although tough, said it was great. They all agree it's not the end all of flight schools, but they deliver what they promise. Do all of the FBO's do that? Some may some may not. The guarantee has a big effect on people. ATP is willing to hold their end of the bargain, as long as YOU the student do the same. It's not spoon fed, there's a ton of prep work ect.....IF those going into it know that-they will do great. Peace:rawk:
 
BobDDuck said:
Paul, one of the points I (and I think Don) am trying to make is that the RJ course doesn't really have a financial value. I mean, it obviously does, as people are willing to pay up to $6000 for it, but you can't really say that ATP has increased instructor pay by $2500 as the "value" of the course in the real world is practically zero.
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You can't say that, no. It's along the same lines as 'employee discounts' people have at stores, or being able to eat at McDonalds for free if you work for them. It has a value to the employee but it is not the face value of the product. It's not something you can then 'sell' to someone else so applying a monetary value to it is difficult. Kind of like the infomercials that say you'll get $99 worth of free knives if you just purchase one knife at normal retail value, when they really only cost like $2 to make.

But there is a value there, at a minimum it is whatever they pay the instructor per course divided by the number of students in a CRJ class plus whatever it costs to run the simulator for 20 hours.
 
BobDDuck said:
What they like is that they get first crack at these people before they go somewhere else. Also, there is something of a screening process, as ATP is staking their "flow through" marketing on providing at least competent applicants to the airlines. It's something of a symbiotic relationship.
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Yes, this is why they've started to fail people in the CRJ course (rare but happens.) At least in my opinion that is why they've gotten serious in it. It is almost as though the actual customers for the CRJ courses are the airlines whom snatch up those who complete it, so ATP rightly wants the highest ratio of successful people it can get (ATP then can increase its own statistics which in turn attract more students.)
I think this is the seat of Don's and others problems with it. It's not going to happen now because they can't even staff hardly at all but what if sometime in the future when the industry cools off airlines say: 'Uh, we need some pilots -- but not real bad. We're also in kind of a bad situation financially so we can't take any risks. It costs a lot to train you guys... Therefore we're ONLY going to hire those who complete some kind of ATP CRJ course or equivilent.' That would be bad.

As it is right now though, I view it along the same vein as renting a light twin to build time for the purposes of improving your resume. Maybe not something I would do (unless it was dirt cheap) but I can't find any fault in it. Or renting an IFR cessna and practicing your IFR flying with an instructor so that you're more likely to do well in the sim eval on your interview. Or renting time in a Baron FTD because you know the airline you want to go to uses a frasca Baron FTD on the eval and you know frascas are freaking annoying and you don't want to blow it. I can't criticise any of these actions, so long as the airline does not suggest or make you do it.
 
turbojet28 said:
Boomer,

If it's OK with you, I would like it if Don stayed instead of "bugging out".
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:laff: sometimes you guys kill me.

Although he LOOVVVEEESS to club the ATP stuff from time to time, I think this is appropriate to compliment his aviation career:

allhail.gif
 
BobDDuck said:
Paul, one of the points I (and I think Don) am trying to make is that the RJ course doesn't really have a financial value.
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LISTEN here you little RJ driver! :p That CRJ FTD they have at ATP must have cost a pretty buck. Plus those that do the RJ course get a nice stack of manuals/publications. Soo...I think the RJ course does have a monetary value - BUT definitely not $6k worth!! You can get a friggin 737 type rating for just a few bucks more then that! What do you get with the RJ course? A few hours of RJ training - WOW!!!!!!!!!! Definitely not worth $6000, and those that spend that kind of money are STUPID!! Pay me $6k and I will personally train you to fly an RJ sim and even give you a place to stay and meals for 5 days AND I"ll write you a letter of recommendation to Colgan so you can fly a Turbo Prop with yo newly acquired RJ skillz!! :laff:


I think its good they are giving the RJ course to instructors for free. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, and so now you have a great way to build time as an instructor, get some introduction to Airline procedures and RJ systems and get hired sooner. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone wants to get their career jumpstarted. But paying anything more then $1k for that program is a waste. For free, you guys are getting something that IS beneficial.
 
Airdale said:
LISTEN here you little RJ driver! :p That CRJ FTD they have at ATP must have cost a pretty buck. Plus those that do the RJ course get a nice stack of manuals/publications. Soo...I think the RJ course does have a monetary value - BUT definitely not $6k worth!! You can get a friggin 737 type rating for just a few bucks more then that! What do you get with the RJ course? A few hours of RJ training - WOW!!!!!!!!!! Definitely not worth $6000, and those that spend that kind of money are STUPID!! Pay me $6k and I will personally train you to fly an RJ sim and even give you a place to stay and meals for 5 days AND I"ll write you a letter of recommendation to Colgan so you can fly a Turbo Prop with yo newly acquired RJ skillz!! :laff:


I think its good they are giving the RJ course to instructors for free. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, and so now you have a great way to build time as an instructor, get some introduction to Airline procedures and RJ systems and get hired sooner. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone wants to get their career jumpstarted. But paying anything more then $1k for that program is a waste. For free, you guys are getting something that IS beneficial.
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:yeahthat:
 
BobDDuck said:
Paul, one of the points I (and I think Don) am trying to make is that the RJ course doesn't really have a financial value. I mean, it obviously does, as people are willing to pay up to $6000 for it, but you can't really say that ATP has increased instructor pay by $2500 as the "value" of the course in the real world is practically zero.
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I could see that.... I dont mean to yell or make it a huge deal... The only thing I was trying to point and state and i've done so is the argument that b/c someone got their PPL 90 days ago followed by their CFI doesnt mean they are less quality then someone who got their ppl 2 years ago and cfi yesterday.... Both are new.....

However I can see his argument about they havent increased their pay. B/c a lot will ditch before they even can get the RJ course or instruct 300 hours b/c of the low time hiring. Therefore if that was the case I can see the point there.... and no arguments about that once so ever! I respect all of you who are where you are now and dont mean to be shaddy or cause qualms..... I just was trying to point out a new CFI is a CFI period....
 
meyers9163 said:
I just was trying to point out a new CFI is a CFI period....
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Very true. All CFIs suck pretty much equally when they are getting started. However, once they get comfortable with instructing, a CFI who spent several years flying around for fun WHILE working towards their ratings will probably have a lot more to offer their student then the one who has been down the academy path. While I didn't get my private at ATP, I did it right before I went down there. When I started instructing I had something like 11 hours of solo time. I had taken exactly ONE flight that wasn't for training purposes (I took my sister up right after I got my PPL) and even to this day I have just taken a plane out "for fun" maybe four or five time.

Many of my students had WAY more experience tooling around in a cessna then I did while I was training them. Did it really matter? No. I don't think so, but there were experience things I couldn't teach them because I'd never been there before.
 
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