Retaining Pilots

Nice as flex schedules are, they're an ever-changing slippery bitch to keep working. Just when everything is aligned right, one thing changes and Whoa, Nellie.

Way too easy for them to become the other 4-letter 'F' word. Which makes them into another broken management promise.

There's probably a critical number of employees doing flex to make it more likely to keep working. Other industries provide some guidance here, Major?
 
In addition to what others have said, consider devising a flow-thru agreement with a mid-level carrier (allegiant, spirit, jet blue, virgin, frontier, etc) . This will only work if you operate twin turbine aircraft I suspect.
 
av8tr1 said:
Is there a story behind that?
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Yes. Our union and management are having a difference in opinion when it comes to how to negotiate out JCBA. They want to do anything that leads down a path of arbitration, including abandoning the negotiations that they already started. We believe they need to finish what was already started before addressing the merger.

So basically they're suing us even though we need pilots, attrition is way up, pilots coming into class are down, and we have a pretty substantial amount of growth planned in the next 12-18 months.
 
Hacker15e said:
Fellas, Hook isn't just some schmoozy businessman who is trying to make a fast buck on the backs of pilots he knows need to build time and will work for slave wages.
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Ok. Until I see differently, I will take your word on that.

He's asking here because he's looking for real insight, not just a bunch of cheap shots and slapsticky, coy answers.
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They may want to hire a consultant then as there are 2 things he said that he has a VAST misunderstanding of as well as another 2-3 that are questionable at best if they will work out.
 
I am really happy in the shop that I am currently at. I doubt you could reproduce many of these things at a part 135, but I'll tell you about them anyways. Some people like the airline lifestyle, others do not. I think hiring the right person is essential. If they are home based, make enough money, and have a stable workplace, they will stay.

The reasons I am at my current place are:

#1 - Scheduling flexibility. I only really work when I want to work. I tend to take 15-16 days off every month, and 20 off a month in the summer while using my vacation time. With that, I still flew 800 hours last year, and credited about 1200 hours. I drop/add/swap for whatever I want each month, and have not missed any holidays, birthdays, or any other special days with the family. I am able to get at least 7 days off in a row each month for a little vacation.

#2 - No commute. I live in base and drive 15 minutes to work.

#3 - Pay. I have received a few raises in the past several months that were all unexpected. I am being paid much more than what I agreed to when I came here. I want it to be more, of course, but who doesn't..

#4 - Travel. I use my flight benefits quite a bit. I have been to Europe about half a dozen times in the last year, and always in first/business class. It has allowed me to take my parents on a trip of a lifetime, and between free flights and free hotels (points), we took a $30,000 vacation and spent about $5,000. This summer is going to mostly travel to Asia, and we are all very excited about it.

#5 - Advancement. I am able to advance in the company. In the 2 1/2 years I have been here, I am able to do more than just fly airplanes (if I want to). Flying airplanes and building a logbook is great, but doing so while building a resume is even better. Safety department, union volunteer, mentor, and much more.

#6 - Other Benefits. Healthcare with dental and optical, 401k, profit sharing, vacation pay (2 weeks minimum), uniform allowance, and all of the other little perks that pop up.

#7 - Stability. I feel that my job will still exist tomorrow. This would probably be higher on my list if I even thought for a second that my job was in real danger to being lost. As of now, however, barring a catastrophic event in the industry, I feel pretty good about the company.
 
tbstanto said:
I am really happy in the shop that I am currently at. I doubt you could reproduce many of these things at a part 135, but I'll tell you about them anyways. Some people like the airline lifestyle, others do not. I think hiring the right person is essential. If they are home based, make enough money, and have a stable workplace, they will stay.

The reasons I am at my current place are:

#1 - Scheduling flexibility. I only really work when I want to work. I tend to take 15-16 days off every month, and 20 off a month in the summer while using my vacation time. With that, I still flew 800 hours last year, and credited about 1200 hours. I drop/add/swap for whatever I want each month, and have not missed any holidays, birthdays, or any other special days with the family. I am able to get at least 7 days off in a row each month for a little vacation.

#2 - No commute. I live in base and drive 15 minutes to work.

#3 - Pay. I have received a few raises in the past several months that were all unexpected. I am being paid much more than what I agreed to when I came here. I want it to be more, of course, but who doesn't..

#4 - Travel. I use my flight benefits quite a bit. I have been to Europe about half a dozen times in the last year, and always in first/business class. It has allowed me to take my parents on a trip of a lifetime, and between free flights and free hotels (points), we took a $30,000 vacation and spent about $5,000. This summer is going to mostly travel to Asia, and we are all very excited about it.

#5 - Advancement. I am able to advance in the company. In the 2 1/2 years I have been here, I am able to do more than just fly airplanes (if I want to). Flying airplanes and building a logbook is great, but doing so while building a resume is even better. Safety department, union volunteer, mentor, and much more.

#6 - Other Benefits. Healthcare with dental and optical, 401k, profit sharing, vacation pay (2 weeks minimum), uniform allowance, and all of the other little perks that pop up.

#7 - Stability. I feel that my job will still exist tomorrow. This would probably be higher on my list if I even thought for a second that my job was in real danger to being lost. As of now, however, barring a catastrophic event in the industry, I feel pretty good about the company.
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...you taking resumes?
 
bimmerphile said:
...you taking resumes?
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If you asked 100 people at my company if they are happy, 25% would say that they are very happy, 50% would say that it was ok, and 25% would say that they hate it.

A job is what you make it. Your personality and experience in life plays a big part on your outlook. I stay out of the politics and understand that this is a job. It is the company's job to complete flights. They sometimes do things that I don't like (schedule modifications), but those are a part of the job. But, I have never been involuntarily extended or junior manned in more than 2 years.

I am not trying to promote my place - not at all. We have problems. But, to me, the benefits far outweigh the negatives.

That is why I said it is important to find the right employee. For my company, I am the right employee. I will leave when I can go to a legacy, but not before. I would not consider a lateral transfer, even if I were going to make $10k more a year. I also would not consider giving up the QOL to go to an ULCC and make about the same just to fly a larger airplane. It just isn't worth it to me.
 
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Seggy said:
They may want to hire a consultant then as there are 2 things he said that he has a VAST misunderstanding of as well as another 2-3 that are questionable at best if they will work out.
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So what do you think we're missing?

For what it's worth, our founding team has about 80 years of experience in the aviation industry. That said, getting this out of the gate is challenging. Someone else said it: start-ups are hard.

I wouldn't be in if I didn't think it was the right thing for us, the communities we want to serve, and our future team members.
 
QOL is higher value than pay. I think that you can find the pilots you're looking for in the interview. Find those that want to live in the area (home based). I think you'll be surprised at the number of pilots willing to settle in and make a good living if the QOL is acceptable.

I disagree that you need to establish a "flow-through" agreement. Not very pilot wants to fly the majors (I know I state this at grave risk...)
 
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hook_dupin said:
So what do you think we're missing?
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Honestly, and I don't mean to be a richard, but as you asked, a lot.

For what it's worth, our founding team has about 80 years of experience in the aviation industry. That said, getting this out of the gate is challenging. Someone else said it: start-ups are hard.
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Especially in aviation.

I wouldn't be in if I didn't think it was the right thing for us, the communities we want to serve, and our future team members.
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Got it.

hook_dupin said:
This is how we see it. We can offer decent, livable money. More importantly, we think we can offer a scheduled that will allow pilots on the team to be home at night, have weekends, and we won't fly on holidays.

We realistically expect some turnover -that's just the business. For those looking to move on to 121, we want to make them really ask "Should I stay here an extra year?
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I know you are a smart guy, but with the amount of retirements we are going to see over the next decade, if you think folks are going to delay their career progression to stick around, your glasses are way to rose colored. Now I know there are a lot of other jobs out there besides 121 flying and you may be able to find those on that career path, but even with them, they will move on as soon as the next best opportunity presents itself to them.

I'm having fun, I make a difference, I get listened to, and I get treated well." We think Cape Air has it right.

I guess what we're really looking for is the less tangible stuff. We can pay decently (but not off the charts crazy money), we plan for CASS and non-rev benefits, but we think it's more than just a punch list on a benefits sheet. What can a small company do to really make a pilots believe they're part of the team and the work they do is important?

Simply put: we see an opportunity that maybe others don't and we think we have the right team to chase it. We all definitely believe that figuring out how to keep talent should be a core competency for the company -we're looking hard for ways to do that.
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The having fun, difference, I get listened to, I am part of the team, is a very old, tired, and worn mantra. I have flown with dozens of guys and gals from Kiwi, Peoples Express (they had pilots who were 'flight managers' who 'ran' the place), TWA, Pan Am, and Eastern who thought they were having fun, making a difference, and being treated well. Even my current place at one time was 'employee owned'.

Anyway, what I am saying is that what you have said isn't new or exciting. You can try to execute it all you want and maybe even have some success, but in the end, the mantra has been there done that. A good example is the progression of JetBlue. It is amazing to see the progression of the pilot group from 2005 until today. Back in 2005 they bent over backwards for the company, today, not so much. So keep in mind, folks are going to do what is best for their career or if success is found at your place, and I hope it is successful, the attitude of the pilot group is going to change.

Just because you offer CASS or non-rev benefits doesn't mean it will be reciprocal. CASS doesn't mean you get an automatic jumpseat agreement in place with every airline within CASS. Each jumpseat agreement has to be negotiated separately with each airline. You may get one or two that work for your pilot group, but don't think you will be able to get an unlimited international one with 'Merican right out of the gate. Same thing goes with reciprocal nonrev benefits. They have to be negotiated with each individual airline and they may say no if they think their employees can't get much benefit out of it but your employees can.


Separate from the pilot risk, we think "today's market" is actually pretty good. Airlines have generally become more concentrated leaving smaller markets with less service than before. The economy continues to slowly improve and interest rates are still low. On the ground, road conditions aren't getting better and traffic is getting worse everywhere. That two hour drive to the airport with major airline service is now stretching to three or four in many places -we see a market for a small airline and we're chasing it.
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Well, once again, IMHO a little rosey view point. What I am seeing is more seats in the domestic market. If you think some markets are getting behind, ok, but once the passenger gets to the larger market it better be easy to have their bags transferred, rebooked if they miss their flight, etc. Easier said than done.

Now, others have suggested a flow through but I don't see any airline wanting to touch that, even the smaller/medium sized career destination airlines.

The other suggestion of hiring part timers I think isn't going to work either. It may, but the insurance company might balk at that and/or the FAA.

As stated, you asked, I am just giving you my opinion. Others may think differently and that is OK, just giving you my view of the world.
 
Seggy said:
The other suggestion of hiring part timers I think isn't going to work either. It may, but the insurance company might balk at that and/or the FAA.
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What does the FAA or an insurance company care about how many hours your pilots work a year? I mean, if pilots on reserve don't get used much for a few months, I don't think the FAA freaks out over it. Don't really see the difference.

Anyway, the question was how to find pilots that aren't going to bail for a better airline gig as soon as they can. Since nearly all will, the options are pretty much looking at people that have no interest in those better jobs. Which will be pilots nearing or in retirement, pilots that want a part time schedule, or pilots that aren't otherwise employable elsewhere. In all cases, not the ones that would work out well for you being on call all of the time, since they would probably quit anyway.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
What does the FAA or an insurance company care about how many hours your pilots work a year? I mean, if pilots on reserve don't get used much for a few months, I don't think the FAA freaks out over it. Don't really see the difference.
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I get that not everyone flies a 60-90 hour month in professional aviation.

However, the issue comes into play with the FAA as if you are a part time employee, how could they be sure you obtain proper rest (they will not want you working an office job from 7AM-2PM then going flying from 3:00 PM to 11:00 PM), aren't flying for another place in another aircraft (may or may not be an issue) hence flight time tracking considerations, have the proper training as a part time employee, etc. I am sure a lot dependent is on the POI and FSDO. Now, with the insurance they may cover only 'full time' employees operating the aircraft or even have higher insurance rates if full time employees are not employed to fly the aircraft.

I am not saying any of these things are definitive, but they may be considerations.
 
tbstanto said:
If you asked 100 people at my company if they are happy, 25% would say that they are very happy, 50% would say that it was ok, and 25% would say that they hate it.

A job is what you make it. Your personality and experience in life plays a big part on your outlook. I stay out of the politics and understand that this is a job. It is the company's job to complete flights. They sometimes do things that I don't like (schedule modifications), but those are a part of the job. But, I have never been involuntarily extended or junior manned in more than 2 years.

I am not trying to promote my place - not at all. We have problems. But, to me, the benefits far outweigh the negatives.

That is why I said it is important to find the right employee. For my company, I am the right employee. I will leave when I can go to a legacy, but not before. I would not consider a lateral transfer, even if I were going to make $10k more a year. I also would not consider giving up the QOL to go to an ULCC and make about the same just to fly a larger airplane. It just isn't worth it to me.
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I would wonder what an HR professional would say, it seems like we are finger painting here.

If 25% bail because they are unhappy what does that do to the remaining 75%? Will that continue in perpetuity or would you be able to hire an additional 25 in your example? Just curiousity, i don't know how 135 responds to increased pressure from 121 carriers.
 
Seggy said:
I get that not everyone flies a 60-90 hour month in professional aviation.

However, the issue comes into play with the FAA as if you are a part time employee, how could they be sure you obtain proper rest (they will not want you working an office job from 7AM-2PM then going flying from 3:00 PM to 11:00 PM), aren't flying for another place in another aircraft (may or may not be an issue) hence flight time tracking considerations, have the proper training as a part time employee, etc.
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Fair enough, but they aren't even sure of that for full time 121 pilots. Plenty of them have side jobs, or work as DPEs nearly as much as they fly for their own airline (at least most of the DPEs I've know. Pretty sure they make more doing checkrides).

I would assume the feds would insist on the same training for all pilots flying for a 135 operation. I can't imagine they would have a problem if some were scheduled for 6 days/month and some were scheduled for 14.
 
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