Restricted ATP ( R-ATP ) For Military

Soku39 said:
On a complete side note, I will never understand how guys go from flying god's jets (F/A-18, F-15 etc) and then go on to be content flying an airliner. @Hacker15e
Click to expand...

You're right -- the actual hands-on task of flying an airliner is positively boring and simple compared to flying a fighter. That's not the whole story, though, as both @MikeD and @///AMG have said.

I'm finding that flying fighters was about the excitement of flying the jet, and that helped me tolerate all of the military desk-job/OPR/CBT/PFT/PRF/etc crap that surrounds it. Flying for the airlines isn't just about the satisfaction of flying the airplane...it is about the lack of additional crap around it! It is completely the opposite experience of flying for the military, and I love it. Honestly, after 20 years of the constant intensity of work it takes to turn-and-burn, it is a wonderful shift.

I am now able to enjoy my life outside work: spending time with my family, pursuing my other hobbies, and all that. My wife says I've had a monumental shift in attitude from her perception, that I'm a much happier and more relaxed person overall. I can hardly wipe the smile off my face. Even the hardships of the airline career that airline guys fill scores of APC and FI threads bitching about really aren't that bad compared to the career and life challenges I've had to deal with in the military.

I know you are a part-timer, @Soku39, so you probably know all this, but this was a revelation for me that I don't think could really be adequately explained to me when I was an active duty flight-suit wearer and sipping the blue Kool Aid as part of my daily breakfast.

The best part is that, theoretically, it only gets better from here. Better pay, work rules, more time off, etc. Flying an airliner is enough fun in and of itself to keep the aviation fire burning. I enjoy the job and the people I do it with. Frankly, one of the big surprises for me is that I really enjoy the customer service aspect of flying for the airlines, interacting with the passengers, etc. That is something I really didn't get in my AF flying at all.

I am thoroughly convinced that I've made the right decision. I do miss the actual act of physically being in the jet, canopy down, tear-assing around the sky, and I also miss some of the social aspects of being in a fighter squadron...

...but I don't miss the other 98% of the stuff that I had to do at the job in order to enjoy those two parts. It was a good career, but so, too, is this one.
 
Last edited:
Lawman said:
Same reason Helo guys don't get to be CAG.

Rotor trash aren't real people.

I'm not getting out of the military any time soon. I'm just trying to see what my options picture looks like 3-5 years from now when I'm not close enough to retirement to stay in for whatever reason pushing me to leave (family, illness, Not GAF anymore, etc).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
What's CAG/GAF? Not familiar with those two acronyms. I'm in a similar boat to you, but could retire pretty much anytime at this point. If you aren't committed to switch to FW and are just looking to maintain a flying job, I'm sure motherrucker could hook you up as a DAC/contractor. Know a few guys that switch over at the 10 year mark and "sold back" their active duty time to build seniority.

And you're right....RW aren't real people.
 
CAG is the Carrier Airwing Commander……O-6 aviator job in the USN, generally filled by a VFA guy/gal, though occasionally an E-2C or Prowler/Growler bubba. There has been a lot of professional commentary lately from the HSM/HSC communities about why they should be considered for CAG. That is a whole other can of worms/discussion.
 
TC_ABM said:
CAG is also Combat Applications Group if you're Army. GAF = Ground Assault Force in some circles.
Click to expand...
Ok, I think I remember CAG being thrown and in a division setting before, and had been in a few briefs with the phrase "ground assault forces" but had never seen it acronymed.
 
TC_ABM said:
CAG is also Combat Applications Group if you're Army. GAF = Ground Assault Force in some circles.
Click to expand...

Not anymore though.

You know how it goes. Somebody writes a book that outs Delta as CAG like they did with "the unit" and now we have to come up with a new name to call the spec ops group we pretend everybody doesn't know we have.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ok, so here's something interesting. Some airlines POI will interpret the regulations differently.

Piedmont can't even interview you unless you have an AMEL. And according to their POI, one must have gotten all 750 hours of flight time in the military in order to qualify for the R-ATP.

I meet all other requirements and need to get the 25 multi in order to interview with them.

Commutair on the other hand is willing to hire me under the 750 hour R-ATP even though I only have 149 hours of military time and the rest of it is civilian.

So weird.
 
Jamesah2008 said:
Ok, so here's something interesting. Some airlines POI will interpret the regulations differently.

Piedmont can't even interview you unless you have an AMEL. And according to their POI, one must have gotten all 750 hours of flight time in the military in order to qualify for the R-ATP.

I meet all other requirements and need to get the 25 multi in order to interview with them.

Commutair on the other hand is willing to hire me under the 750 hour R-ATP even though I only have 149 hours of military time and the rest of it is civilian.

So weird.
Click to expand...

Ummm NO. All you have to do is have passed a "Military flight training program" to qualify for the 750 R-ATP.

I do agree you have to have your AMEL in order to interview though. That is a minimum requirement for all airlines
 
JPilot9 said:
Maybe he doesn't have the time?
Click to expand...

Agreed. I should clarify that I meant if one is close....within a few hundred hours and flying regularly, then may as well wait for an ATP and not bother with restrictions.
 
WaterRooster said:
Ummm NO. All you have to do is have passed a "Military flight training program" to qualify for the 750 R-ATP.

I do agree you have to have your AMEL in order to interview though. That is a minimum requirement for all airlines
Click to expand...

UMM read what I said... The principal operation inspector at said airline is interpreting the reg poorly which in turn is screwing the airline recruiting staff. Also, having a multi isn't a minimum requirement for all airlines so you're wrong on both counts... C5 gave me a class date contingent on getting the requisite AMEL add on and the 25 hours of time. Piedmont wouldn't even speak to me despite having 1,200+ TT in ASEL and Helicopter. My AMEL add on ride is tomorrow so no big deal either way but I'm just sharing my experience.
 
Jamesah2008 said:
UMM read what I said... The principal operation inspector at said airline is interpreting the reg poorly which in turn is screwing the airline recruiting staff. Also, having a multi isn't a minimum requirement for all airlines so you're wrong on both counts... C5 gave me a class date contingent on getting the requisite AMEL add on and the 25 hours of time. Piedmont wouldn't even speak to me despite having 1,200+ TT in ASEL and Helicopter. My AMEL add on ride is tomorrow so no big deal either way but I'm just sharing my experience.
Click to expand...

I was telling you what the Reg IS, not how they are interpreting it. No other airline reads it like that. It's not like I'm guessing, I actually HAVE a military R-ATP....

As for the AMEL, I could be wrong. Airline apps has it as a minimum item for all airlines as well as 25 hours of multi time. Although it appears they are waiving even that now it seems
 
Last edited:
So I have civilian flight time and also am flying for the Air Force. I do not have 1500 hours but I do have above 750(plus all the other time requirements for the ATP). From what I understand, and after some experimentation on IACRA, to do the Restricted ATP, you can't do it on IACRA and it must be done by way of a paper 8710-1. Is this correct?

Also, the examiner was concerned that since I did my written under the "old rule" meaning before that August deadline where the CTP would have to be done to take the written, that the restricted ATP wouldn't apply to me. He wasn't sure, that was just him thinking out loud, but he has also never done a Restricted-ATP before. He is gonna check with his front-line manager and ops guy at the FSDO.

The way I read the regs, the written has nothing to do with it and my second question is a non-issue.
 
gulfstreampiper said:
So I have civilian flight time and also am flying for the Air Force. I do not have 1500 hours but I do have above 750(plus all the other time requirements for the ATP). From what I understand, and after some experimentation on IACRA, to do the Restricted ATP, you can't do it on IACRA and it must be done by way of a paper 8710-1. Is this correct?

Also, the examiner was concerned that since I did my written under the "old rule" meaning before that August deadline where the CTP would have to be done to take the written, that the restricted ATP wouldn't apply to me. He wasn't sure, that was just him thinking out loud, but he has also never done a Restricted-ATP before. He is gonna check with his front-line manager and ops guy at the FSDO.

The way I read the regs, the written has nothing to do with it and my second question is a non-issue.
Click to expand...

If the written was done prior to the drop dead date and you have any combination of 750 total hours as a pilot + are a graduate of a formal military flying program (UPT, UNT, etc) that you qualify for an R-ATP. I did a paper 8710 as part of a combined type check/ATP ride at a part 121 airline, there were no issues and as far as the examiner was concerned it was black and white.

Where you may run in to trouble is doing 5 hours in an apache and doing the ride with DE misinformed who has no idea this is the case, and I'd be willing to bet most FSDOs don't even know this is the case.

All that to say I'm not sure what to tell you, hopefully they can come up with the proper interpretation of the regulation, it's really not that difficult.
 
Soku39 said:
If the written was done prior to the drop dead date and you have any combination of 750 total hours as a pilot + are a graduate of a formal military flying program (UPT, UNT, etc) that you qualify for an R-ATP. I did a paper 8710 as part of a combined type check/ATP ride at a part 121 airline, there were no issues and as far as the examiner was concerned it was black and white.

Where you may run in to trouble is doing 5 hours in an apache and doing the ride with DE misinformed who has no idea this is the case, and I'd be willing to bet most FSDOs don't even know this is the case.

All that to say I'm not sure what to tell you, hopefully they can come up with the proper interpretation of the regulation, it's really not that difficult.
Click to expand...

DPE talked to the FSDO, said it wouldn't be a problem. When you filled out the 8710-1, on part 2 did you select A. Completion of Test or Activity AS WELL AS B. US Military Competence or Experience?
 
gulfstreampiper said:
DPE talked to the FSDO, said it wouldn't be a problem. When you filled out the 8710-1, on part 2 did you select A. Completion of Test or Activity AS WELL AS B. US Military Competence or Experience?
Click to expand...

I really wish I could remember, but this was 2 1/2 years ago, right when the entire thing started. I think I was the first, or one of the first guys at L-ExpressJet to get my ATP this way.They knew this would be the case when they hired me and the sim instructor that did my checkride was not surprised as I made sure emails were passed along through the training department when I started. I'll try to get on IACRA and see if the 8710 is there.
 
Soku39 said:
I really wish I could remember, but this was 2 1/2 years ago, right when the entire thing started. I think I was the first, or one of the first guys at L-ExpressJet to get my ATP this way.They knew this would be the case when they hired me and the sim instructor that did my checkride was not surprised as I made sure emails were passed along through the training department when I started. I'll try to get on IACRA and see if the 8710 is there.
Click to expand...
Don't worry about it. We ended up including taxi time(which I remembered the Air Force doesn't count) and my "other time" which brought the total to above 1500 so we just did the full ATP.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top