Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Aircraft

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

ATN_Pilot said:
Kell, you're forgetting that there are three separate contracts at issue here, not just the Republic contract. The F9 contract allows for a seniority integration, as long as the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs are followed, but it doesn't allow for their contract to be replaced with the Republic contract after the SLI. Republic will still have to honor the F9 contract until a joint CBA is agreed upon. The F9 contract is binding upon the successor corporation. That's why all contracts include successorship language.
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True. I'm just going off the contract language I've seen so far, which is Republic's. Either way, I think it's gonna be a total mess. There's no avoiding it, but it's gotta be done. I know RAH management wants to keep the two separate, but I can already see that RAH's contract alone won't let that happen. I'm guessing IBT has already filed for that to get fixed. The other question is who's gonna represent who? IBT represents RAH and ALPA represents F9. I'm not gonna turn this into a union debate thread, but that's gonna go down at some point, too.

I'd LOVE to see RAH get Frontier pay rates along with a good contract. I'd be jealous as hell, but it would be good for the industry overall. The realist in me hasn't seen where that's gonna be cut and dry arguable (yet). Then again, my Pavlovian response is to assume management is gonna interpret everything how it works out best for them and won't change unless you drag them kicking and screaming into a court room or arbitrator's office.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

kellwolf said:
The other question is who's gonna represent who? IBT represents RAH and ALPA represents F9. I'm not gonna turn this into a union debate thread, but that's gonna go down at some point, too.
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Actually, ALPA only represents Midwest. The guys at Frontier are represented by a weak in-house union called FAPA (Frontier Airline Pilots Association). I'm a bit worried for them, because they just don't have the money to put up a good defense for the SLI.

At some point, there will have to be a representational vote to see who the surviving collective bargaining agent will be. That probably won't take place until after the SLI, though.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

ATN_Pilot said:
Actually, ALPA only represents Midwest. The guys at Frontier are represented by a weak in-house union called FAPA (Frontier Airline Pilots Association). I'm a bit worried for them, because they just don't have the money to put up a good defense for the SLI.

At some point, there will have to be a representational vote to see who the surviving collective bargaining agent will be. That probably won't take place until after the SLI, though.
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Ah. Coulda sworn they were ALPA. My bad.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

ATN_Pilot said:
Actually, ALPA only represents Midwest. The guys at Frontier are represented by a weak in-house union called FAPA (Frontier Airline Pilots Association). I'm a bit worried for them, because they just don't have the money to put up a good defense for the SLI.

At some point, there will have to be a representational vote to see who the surviving collective bargaining agent will be. That probably won't take place until after the SLI, though.
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So does my point about the unconditional scope relief factor in here or due I need to put down the crack pipe?
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

Todd,

I may or not be correct, and I'm sure you'll know.

Aren't contracts required to be held in "status quo" if there is an ongoing amalgamation process if there is merger/acquisition protocol in Section 1?

I'm only familiar with Republic's and the current contract I'm under, but they seem similar in those respects. For some reason or another, I have seen some others that also have similar language to prevent the Texas Air Shuffle (as referenced earlier).
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

I wouldn't use the term "status quo," as that is specifically used in the RLA to refer to the period between the amendable date of a CBA and the ratification of a new agreement, but it is true that all parties maintain their original agreements until a JCBA can be agreed upon by all parties. The new combined company cannot merely impose one contract or another on the entire group.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

ATN_Pilot said:
To the best of my knowledge, no one has given any scope relief. Did I miss something?
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That was part of the language during the buyout. I looked for an article for reference, but only came up with some archives mentioning that requirement during negotiations. Whether or not it ultimately went through is another thing.

I was under the assumption it did, but again could be wrong.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

bike21 said:
That was part of the language during the buyout. I looked for an article for reference, but only came up with some archives mentioning that requirement during negotiations. Whether or not it ultimately went through is another thing.

I was under the assumption it did, but again could be wrong.
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I could be wrong, but I think you're remembering the SWA attempted buyout, not the Republic deal. To the best of my recollection, FAPA didn't give up anything for this merger.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

hmmm, me thinks someone is out to compete with southwest for a third of the cost per crew.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

And they'll still lose. Crew pay is a small part of the total cost per seat mile.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

ATN_Pilot said:
I could be wrong, but I think you're remembering the SWA attempted buyout, not the Republic deal. To the best of my recollection, FAPA didn't give up anything for this merger.
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After some searching, I came up with this little bit...

"There are many terms and conditions within the Republic Plan that must be satisfied in return for this investment. Of interest to FAPA Members – the Republic Plan requires changes be made to our CBA including a 3 year extension (to March 2, 2015) of the amendable date and a change to Section 1.F allowing for “unlimited scope relief.” For all employees, the Frontier profit sharing plan will be replaced with a Republic profit sharing plan. Republic’s terms are initial “asks” and not changes that will be casually forced upon us. Republic has indicated that they plan to operate Frontier as a separate fenced off company and not merge seniority lists."
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The source was from a direct communique from the F9's union. Unfortunately I don't have anything better than that for the moment, I will get hold of my buddy who is on furlough at F9 and see what he knows.

Ran into a buddy of mine at Lynx today too, poor guy is on his second airline and doesn't know what to do next. Good luck to us all.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

I'm working with ALPA's Director of Representation tomorrow, so I'll ask him about it. Even though they aren't an ALPA carrier, I'm sure he knows the details.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

My take on the whole thing is that Polar is being INCREDIBLY optimistic with how he thinks the integration will run. *IF* is does work out that way and the payrates that the joint group negotiates are current F9 rates or better then fine.

Having watched Bedford wheel and deal with Airways, having watched an SLI go horribly wrong and having watched (multiple times) while an arbitrator has come up with the anything but obvious solution, I think there are too many variables that can go around. That said, all we can do is watch and wait and see.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

I tend to agree. Trying to combine three seniority lists all at once is just asking for disaster, especially when furloughs of a mainline group are involved. I really hope the pilots pick Richard Bloch or George Nicolau to do the arbitration, because I doubt anyone else will have the slightest clue what he's doing.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

BobDDuck said:
My take on the whole thing is that Polar is being INCREDIBLY optimistic with how he thinks the integration will run. *IF* is does work out that way and the payrates that the joint group negotiates are current F9 rates or better then fine.

Having watched Bedford wheel and deal with Airways, having watched an SLI go horribly wrong and having watched (multiple times) while an arbitrator has come up with the anything but obvious solution, I think there are too many variables that can go around. That said, all we can do is watch and wait and see.
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I'm not optimistic or pessimistic, I'm a realist. Whether you believe that or not is up to you.

No one will like the outcome of the SLI. There are a million different ways to skin that cat. This will be completely messy in the integration, as has been demonstrated thus far.

The Midwest pilots are pissed (rightfully so) because being on furlough when a SLI is ongoing is never a good position to be in.

I think the S5 pilots got an unfair shake in the combination of the lists when they were folded in. I benefited by the integration, but I was well prepared, and fully expected, to lose numbers. I'm sure you won't see that again.

However, the integration of the lists, as ugly as that will be, is a separate issue from amalgamating the work rules and pay scales.

The whole theory of the company being able to deny the amalgamation of contracts is crap. The RAH CBA, and I'm sure the F9 CBA as well, will force a single contract. Section 1 of the RAH CBA is pretty clear cut. Could BB pull a rabbit out of the hat? Yes, but I think it's awfully unlikely.

I wouldn't say I'm optimistic about the outcome of the single CBA. Just because I'm not doom and gloom about it doesn't make me think it'll be an industry leading CBA.

To be honest, to get a single CBA still containing the scope that's currently in the RAH CBA and industry average payrates for the Bus and E Jets is all I expect. Probably few, if any, changes in the work rules.

Again, I support them to get the contract they deserve. If you don't, you're not only undermining them, but yourself as well. A contract win for them is a contract win for everyone.

What comes out of the wash? I don't know. What I do know is that there is some very inaccurate information about how the RAH CBA is applied.

I'll be sincerely disappointed in the group if they don't get the appropriate pay for the equipment.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

Polar742 said:
The whole theory of the company being able to deny the amalgamation of contracts is crap. The RAH CBA, and I'm sure the F9 CBA as well, will force a single contract. Section 1 of the RAH CBA is pretty clear cut. Could BB pull a rabbit out of the hat? Yes, but I think it's awfully unlikely.
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This is where I disagree with you. I hope to hell you are right, but in the last 5 years management has shown a great amount of skill in doing just what you say can't be done. Section 1 of Republic's is ANYTHING but clear cut when it is about to be taken apart by the high paid guys at Ford and Harrison. Throw into that mix the Section 1 wording of F9 and Midwest (which reads differently than Republic's) you've got a huge mess on your hands. You KNOW the pilot groups will be too busy fighting each other for a bigger piece of the pie to make a unified front against management and in the end, you will probably see the result making just about everybody (except Bedford) unhappy.

Sure, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel I'm being a realist here.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

BobDDuck said:
This is where I disagree with you. I hope to hell you are right, but in the last 5 years management has shown a great amount of skill in doing just what you say can't be done. Section 1 of Republic's is ANYTHING but clear cut when it is about to be taken apart by the high paid guys at Ford and Harrison. Throw into that mix the Section 1 wording of F9 and Midwest (which reads differently than Republic's) you've got a huge mess on your hands. You KNOW the pilot groups will be too busy fighting each other for a bigger piece of the pie to make a unified front against management and in the end, you will probably see the result making just about everybody (except Bedford) unhappy.

Sure, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel I'm being a realist here.
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I understand why you're worried, and I'd like to mention a couple things.

First, this is the same group that achieved that scope clause while an ALPA-endorsed whipsaw was being started.

Second, that CBA was tested by a proposal by the company (which was not made public, as the scope prevented it from occurring) of acquiring 49% of another regional.

Third, that scope clause was written with the Harrison and Ford guys at the table.

So, yes, it could be undone. But, I think the group knows what was sacrificed to get it. The Frontier guys bring a whole different view to the table.

I don't expect the pilots to be tarred and feathered by management.

Trust me. I remember all the smack talking when I was there for the present contract. It's in the forefront of everyone's mind.

Nothing like being crapped on by your peers for years to give you some resolve. Being called scabs on the radio. Being flipped off by mainline pilots. Being denied jumpseats. Good times, I tell ya. I don't miss it a bit.
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

Polar742 said:
Nothing like being crapped on by your peers for years to give you some resolve. Being called scabs on the radio. Being flipped off by mainline pilots. Being denied jumpseats. Good times, I tell ya. I don't miss it a bit.
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Ahh the wonderful life of a Republic pilot!

Upon entering this industry I never would have imagined the amount of venom and hate that runs in the 121 airline circles. I agree that we are all in this together and that my decision could in time affect my peers lives, but to sit around and come up with reasons as to why one group is at fault for the industry's downfall is laughable. No matter what we get in our new contract it won't be good enough for the anti-RAH cheerleaders. The whole "we are all brothers in this fight together" mantra is BS and clearly goes out the window as soon as things take a turn for the worst and there is an opportunity for everyone to gang up on one pilot group. You can tell that with all the Venom that is being spat on our pilot group that the attitudes are moving away from the "for the greater good (these planes should be at mainline)" outlook to the "screw everyone else we are obviously in this by ourselves" thought process. Hell we have other regional pilots tell us that we won't get hired anywhere in the future and that they should have some sort of blacklist for RAH pilots. ???
 
Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

SoCalAprch said:
Ahh the wonderful life of a Republic pilot!

Upon entering this industry I never would have imagined the amount of venom and hate that runs in the 121 airline circles. I agree that we are all in this together and that my decision could in time affect my peers lives, but to sit around and come up with reasons as to why one group is at fault for the industry's downfall is laughable. No matter what we get in our new contract it won't be good enough for the anti-RAH cheerleaders. The whole "we are all brothers in this fight together" mantra is BS and clearly goes out the window as soon as things take a turn for the worst and there is an opportunity for everyone to gang up on one pilot group. You can tell that with all the Venom that is being spat on our pilot group that the attitudes are moving away from the "for the greater good (these planes should be at mainline)" outlook to the "screw everyone else we are obviously in this by ourselves" thought process. Hell we have other regional pilots tell us that we won't get hired anywhere in the future and that they should have some sort of blacklist for RAH pilots. ???
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Did you expect anything different with the Midwest news? You can count on many new "Cheerleaders" cheering on Airtran in MKE and hoping RAH fails.... You have just as many DAL/UAL/USairways regionals hoping for the same and in some round about way hoping their airline gains flying at RAH demise.... Much like you heard RAH pilots before the Midwest/F9 flying hoping Mesa would fail and their almightly E170/175's would take over the profitable 900 flying..... So it is an industry full of hypocrites at each and every airline, yours and mine included..... With pilots, as a majority, only worried about one thing "Themselves." Further you bring up even more with union politics of IBT vs ALPA and you have your situation above.... And is it the pilots fault at RAH? No, but you can thank your management for any of the attitudes you get.....

By the way, why did you post this? You seem to be very quick to critize any other news such as 4th quarter earnings.... Seems about as pointless of a post when these planes are so far off from happening... You wanted to open another can of worms and continue to do so.... So you cry about a 4th quarter earnings post, the topic of midwest pilots being checkairmen, and yet you post a story like this which is as relevant as the before mentioned.....
 
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