Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Aircraft

[SoCalAprch]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

Which was my point, really.

So what are you saying?

I don't think anyone here is saying what management did was right or even completely ethical but it was legal. Do you think the RAH guys should have gotten furloughed instead just because before all this happened they were regional pilots making a lower wage than the Midwest guys? If one pilot gets paid more than another does that make them more deserving of anothers job? I dunno, its a rhetorical question... I think the mindset at RAH is that everyone wants to see all the furloughs back to work ASAP but not at the expense of their own jobs. There are tons of people who care and want to make it work but no one wants to be the martyr. People treat us like all we care about is upgrading into an Airbus in the next 3 years when that is the farthest from the truth. No one that I talk to really cares what they are flying or where they are sitting. We just want to keep our jobs and keep doing what we were doing before all this stuff happened.

 

[bike21]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

Back right after the Republic/Frontier deal went down, I was in the jump on Frontier. The crew was adamant about their ability to fence off the bus for about 5 years. What they seemed to forget and what others have forgotten is one glaring issue...

They gave unlimited scope relief in the deal.

I think that may well hurt RAH's and F9's chances collectively of keeping the wages where they need to be. Time will tell.

 

[Hootie]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

3) They bought 2 major airlines. They aren't a regional any more.

What is the difference between a major and a regional, if it isn't defined by total revenue? It must be the size of the plane, cause it aint the paycheck.

4) There will be a huge culture shift there.

Will this huge culture shift include mustaches?

 

[Socal321]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

These planes won't say Airways or Delta on the side of them. They will most likely be painted in Frontier colors. Republic owns Frontier. Get your facts straightened out before trying to jump on the RAH bashwagon.

That's assuming your company is still around, at least Frontier/Midwest, in 2015. Let's all hope not for the sake of our profession.

 

[Hootie]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

Better than being on the streets, huh?

If one is so in love with the idea of flying an airplane no matter what the conditions or at what wage, then you are correct. For the other 99% of the population the opportunity cost wasted by pursuing a flying job by any means just isn't a prudent decision.

 

[Polar742]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

What is the difference between a major and a regional, if it isn't defined by total revenue? It must be the size of the plane, cause it aint the paycheck.

You are absolutely correct.

I guess the proper terminology is that they are no longer a "vendor" airline, as they are going independent.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

I believe the amalgamation process after the official SLI is complete does just that, it amalgamates (unites / joins) the two contracts. The way I read it and I could be way off base is that they take the RAH contract and add stuff from the F9 contract that isn't directly touched on in the RAH one. (ie Airbus rates)

That's not quite how it works. Until a joint collective bargaining agreement is negotiated and approved by all parties, the pilots from each airline continue to operate under their original contracts. So, the Frontier pilots operate under their contract, the Republic pilots operate under their contract, and the Midwest pilots would have operated under their contract if Bedford hadn't completely screwed them all over and furloughed them. Contract negotiations will have to result in a joint contract before anyone's working conditions can change.

 

[Polar742]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

That's not quite how it works. Until a joint collective bargaining agreement is negotiated and approved by all parties, the pilots from each airline continue to operate under their original contracts. So, the Frontier pilots operate under their contract, the Republic pilots operate under their contract, and the Midwest pilots would have operated under their contract if Bedford hadn't completely screwed them all over and furloughed them. Contract negotiations will have to result in a joint contract before anyone's working conditions can change.

Well put.

To those involved in the process, or wishing to learn more about it, please read section 1 of your contract, and refer to the NMB website also.

The is a good bunch of information out there on the subject. Please, if you're involved in this process, read up and educate yourself.

The NMB website also has some great information for those of you involved in Section 6 negotiations.

Knowledge is power.

 

[meritflyer]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

Get. A. Real. Contract.

QUICKLY.

I mean this in all seriousness...

What dog do you have in this fight being that, like me, you're an ex-regional pilot with a new career path that will, as you say, never lead you back to the flight deck?

Isn't it a bit of a waste of time arguing about contracts and work rules at this point?

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

I mean this in all seriousness...

What dog do you have in this fight being that, like me, you're an ex-regional pilot with a new career path that will, as you say, never lead you back to the flight deck?

Isn't it a bit of a waste of time arguing about contracts and work rules at this point?

Hes trying to be a lawyer. Assuming he makes it and doesn't take the recal, he'll never be any sort of lawyer if he can't argue about nothing.

When you've got the facts on your side argue the facts
When you've got the law on your side argue the law
When you haven't either, bang you hand against the table and scream to almighty.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

I mean this in all seriousness...

What dog do you have in this fight being that, like me, you're an ex-regional pilot with a new career path that will, as you say, never lead you back to the flight deck?

Isn't it a bit of a waste of time arguing about contracts and work rules at this point?

Dude. He's gonna be a LAWYER.

He's the only one that'll win this one in the end.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

So, that is pretty much the same language in all contracts +/-.

It's not like all this stuff is made up on-the-fly as is often purported by people who speculate in public.

Nah, I know you don't. HOWEVER, the way I read your successorship clause is the RAH agreement takes precedence over the Frontier agreement.....unless they decide FRONTIER bought RAH, in which case it would be THEIR scope. I'm talking about this part here:

2. No contract or other legally binding commitment involving the
transfer of ownership or control pursuant to a Successorship
transaction, whether by sale, transfer or lease of the Company,
Parent or Subsidiary of the Parent, or substantially all of the assets
of any entity, will be signed or otherwise entered into unless it is
agreed as a material and irrevocable condition of entering into,
concluding and implementing such transaction that this Agreement
including the rates of pay, rules and working conditions set forth in
this Agreement will be assumed by the successor employer and
employees on the then current Chautauqua Airlines system
seniority list will be employed in accordance with the provisions of
this Agreement.

Unless I've totally read that wrong, it's saying if someone else buys Chautauqua (now Republic), then they have to honor the agreement. I don't see where it says the CHQ/RAH scope is binding, but it can take on the pay rates of another airline.

As far as the language on the new aircraft, there's nothing that PREVENTS them from flying new airplanes without a pay rate that I could tell. In fact, you could be flying them for 70 days (100 days since negotiations started minus the 30 days from leasing assuming that was the latest), plus the 3 months it may take for the arbitrator to hear the case, plus the 60 days to get the ruling. Essentially, it's not THAT much better than what we've got at 9E. What I'd like to see in our next CBA is they can't fly the airplane until we've decided on a pay rate. We don't have that now, and by what I can tell, RAH doesn't either. About the only thing either of us can hope for is a decent arbitrator and retro pay.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

I believe the amalgamation process after the official SLI is complete does just that, it amalgamates (unites / joins) the two contracts. The way I read it and I could be way off base is that they take the RAH contract and add stuff from the F9 contract that isn't directly touched on in the RAH one. (ie Airbus rates)

Can you cut and paste that? If it's what Polar posted, I'm reading it totally differently.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

=What I'd like to see in our next CBA is they can't fly the airplane until we've decided on a pay rate.

That's pretty much impossible to get nowadays. Managements have learned from what happened at Delta with the 777. The DAL MEC held the company hostage and demanded some rather incredible pay rates, and the company really had little choice but to agree, since the contract didn't allow them to operate the aircraft until a pay rate had been agreed upon. I don't think any management team has forgotten it.

Personally, I think "baseball style" interest arbitration for this sort of dispute would be an interesting way to go. It would get arbitrators away from just averaging a bunch of rates, and it would force both parties to make reasonable proposals.

 

[SoCalAprch]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

That's assuming your company is still around, at least Frontier/Midwest, in 2015. Let's all hope not for the sake of our profession.

Nice contribution to the conversation. :clap:

 

[SoCalAprch]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

Can you cut and paste that? If it's what Polar posted, I'm reading it totally differently.

I was wrong and learned something new today...

:tmyk:

 

[Polar742]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

Unless I've totally read that wrong, it's saying if someone else buys Chautauqua (now Republic), then they have to honor the agreement. I don't see where it says the CHQ/RAH scope is binding, but it can take on the pay rates of another airline.

Again, the answer lies in Section 1. Scope.

In particular, pay attention to paragraph 3. It's pretty much the anti-whipsaw mechanism.

D. Scope
1. This Agreement covers the company, any subsidiary of the
company, the company’s parent, any subsidiary of the
company’s parent and any future airline certificate(s) created as
a subsidiary of the company or subsidiary of the company’s
parent.

<I removed Paragraph 2, as the language isn't related to your question>

3. The Company, Subsidiary of the Company, the Company’s Parent or Subsidiary of the Parent shall not establish any new airline (alter ego or otherwise) or acquire a controlling interest in any carrier whether directly or through the Parent or another Subsidiary of the Parent, and maintain it as a separate carrier. (Note: Emphasis was added by me)

A “Controlling Interest” or “Control” means the ownership of an equity interest representing more than fifty percent (50%) of the outstanding capital stock of an entity or voting securities representing more than fifty percent (50%) of the total voting power of outstanding securities then entitled to vote generally in the election of such entity’s board of directors or other governing
body.

4. The Company will not transfer aircraft, or operating authority to its Parent, a Subsidiary of the Parent, or to a Subsidiary of the Company for the purpose of evading the terms of this Agreement. The Company will also not establish a third party leasing device to evade the terms of this agreement.

As far as the language on the new aircraft, there's nothing that PREVENTS them from flying new airplanes without a pay rate that I could tell. In fact, you could be flying them for 70 days (100 days since negotiations started minus the 30 days from leasing assuming that was the latest), plus the 3 months it may take for the arbitrator to hear the case, plus the 60 days to get the ruling. Essentially, it's not THAT much better than what we've got at 9E. What I'd like to see in our next CBA is they can't fly the airplane until we've decided on a pay rate. We don't have that now, and by what I can tell, RAH doesn't either.

You are correct that they can place shells on property prior to an agreed payrate.

However, there is a mechanism to introduce those payrates. The effectiveness of that mechanism is to be debated.

About the only thing either of us can hope for is a decent arbitrator and retro pay.

Don't be a defeatist. Too much of that going around.

Know your present CBA, and abide by that.

 

[KLB]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

Hes trying to be a lawyer. Assuming he makes it and doesn't take the recal, he'll never be any sort of lawyer if he can't argue about nothing.

This reminds me of a Doug Taylor sports analogy. "He won't win the trial if he can't agure!"

 

[kellwolf]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

Not arguing that the scope clause says it should be one list. I get that, and it's well written. I just don't see where it's one list with the pay rates from a different CBA. To me, it reads like Frontier/Midwest/Lynx should be brought under the Republic CBA, but I still don't see where the pay rates go with them. From how I read it, they get put under the Republic CBA, then the clock starts on negotiating new 100+ seat pay rates.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: Republic announces order of 80 Bombardier C-Seriers Airc

Kell, you're forgetting that there are three separate contracts at issue here, not just the Republic contract. The F9 contract allows for a seniority integration, as long as the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs are followed, but it doesn't allow for their contract to be replaced with the Republic contract after the SLI. Republic will still have to honor the F9 contract until a joint CBA is agreed upon. The F9 contract is binding upon the successor corporation. That's why all contracts include successorship language.