Repercussions of Diciplinary Letter PRIA

[pilot_flyer]

I need some suggestions. I work for a 135 scheduled carrier and recently had an incident where I accepted an additional turn at the end of a trip. I was on 8 hours of reduced rest, but really needed 9 hours of reduced rest since I flew more than 9 hours in a 24 hour period. I won't go into exact details, but I will say that my FO and myself poured over the trip sheets and I had fellow pilots look over them as well. The trip was illegal due to not getting enough rest. So, my FO and I filled an ASAP and called DX to chastise them for assigning us an illegal trip. (This was a mistake since the company found out about it that way). Long story short, the ASAP has still not been accepted but the company had a VERY strongly worded letter that will be placed in our files for 1 year. If we leave the company within that year or are terminated, the letter will remain in our file permanently. We both think that this seems like too strong of punishment for something that the company itself assigned. I guess we'll just sign it because if we don't, they're gonna can us. So is this gonna be on our PRIA For 5 years?

 

[ppragman]

I need some suggestions. I work for a 135 scheduled carrier and recently had an incident where I accepted an additional turn at the end of a trip. I was on 8 hours of reduced rest, but really needed 9 hours of reduced rest since I flew more than 9 hours in a 24 hour period. I won't go into exact details, but I will say that my FO and myself poured over the trip sheets and I had fellow pilots look over them as well. The trip was illegal due to not getting enough rest. So, my FO and I filled an ASAP and called DX to chastise them for assigning us an illegal trip. (This was a mistake since the company found out about it that way). Long story short, the ASAP has still not been accepted but the company had a VERY strongly worded letter that will be placed in our files for 1 year. If we leave the company within that year or are terminated, the letter will remain in our file permanently. We both think that this seems like too strong of punishment for something that the company itself assigned. I guess we'll just sign it because if we don't, they're gonna can us. So is this gonna be on our PRIA For 5 years?

Why hasn't the ASAP been accepted if this was a legitimate mistake? Unless there was falsification on someone's part to cover it up, or you didn't submit the ASAP in time, there is no reason why an ASAP like this should be rejected. You don't by chance work for Seaport do you? PM me if you're uncomfortable talking about it, but I was part of setting up ASAP at my old 135 carrier and am somewhat knowledgable about the process - this shouldn't have happened this way. Stuff like this undermines the value of ASAP and reduces the viability of the whole system. Have you talked to your Chief Pilot about this? Tell us more about the circumstances that lead to this ASAP being rejected by the ERC.

As for your PRIA, I doubt anything can come from it, some of the guys on here have some pretty good knowledge of how PRIA works and other than perhaps listing that you're "not eligible for rehire" I doubt there's anything the company could do. @murphfly and @Capt. Chaos have some experience with PRIA, they're probably able to comment more intelligently on the matter than I can, there may be some other guys on here who are knowledgable of the process.

 

[pilot_flyer]

I'm sorry that I didn't make it clearer. The ASAP report is still open and hasn't been closed yet. So, it's not rejected. Rumor has it that it will be accepted and closed once we sign the disciplinary letter, accepting all the blame and making the company look like they had no part of it.

Thanks so much for your response!

 

[ppragman]

I'm sorry that I didn't make it clearer. The ASAP report is still open and hasn't been closed yet. So, it's not rejected. Rumor has it that it will be accepted and closed once we sign the disciplinary letter, accepting all the blame and making the company look like they had no part of it.

Thanks so much for your response!

Actually, they can't really do that, I mean, at least not ethically anyway. They can do whatever they want, but that basically means ASAP is worthless there. Get it in writing if acceptance of the ASAP is contingent upon you signing the disciplinary letter. Remember, ASAP is supposed to be non-punitive - having a disciplinary letter in your file sounds pretty punitive to me. I personally wouldn't play ball with them on this, but I would need to know more about the situation. Read the MOU thoroughly, something like this may even be prohibited in the MOU.

 

[z987k]

The ASAP has nothing to do with your company. They are at the very least 50% responsible for this. The whole no certificate holder may assign part. I'd tell them to pound sand on the disciplinary letter and call your POI if they say 1 word about it.

 

[pilot_flyer]

We were told that if we don't sign the letter, it will still be placed in our file and we will be terminated. This is an at-will state. We feel like our hands are tied. We've both spoken with lots of other pilots both outside and in the company and everybody says it's BS. I'm leaning towards signing it and then leaving. BTW, the letter was the CP's idea.

 

[DPApilot]

I personally would not sign it.

 

[ctab5060X]

I personally would not sign it.

I wouldn't either.

If you have legal services available, I would stop posting here and start talking there.

 

[z987k]

We were told that if we don't sign the letter, it will still be placed in our file and we will be terminated. This is an at-will state. We feel like our hands are tied. We've both spoken with lots of other pilots both outside and in the company and everybody says it's BS. I'm leaning towards signing it and then leaving. BTW, the letter was the CP's idea.

I'd follow ctab's advice. I'm not a lawyer, but I can't imagine this is even close to legal. You can also talk to your local labor relations board for free.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Stop asking questions of people who fly airplanes for a living and call someone who practices aviation law for a living.

 

[Groundpounder]

I could be wrong, but I don't think that internal disciplinary letters will show up on PRIA. I got one a few jobs ago for something that got screwed up with my training that I was blamed for. I asked if it would show up on PRIA, and I was told no, so I didn't fight it.

 

[derg]

Personally, unless someone is an attorney, I wouldn't take any of the above advice given in this thread except… make an appointment with an aviation attorney immediately.

 

[killbilly]

Personally, unless someone is an attorney, I wouldn't take any of the above advice given in this thread except… make an appointment with an aviation attorney immediately.

@Derg - for as often as this comes up, we need some sort of rubber-stamp meme-graphic-thingy that says, "Lawyer up, ASAP."

 

[🦈💜]

Should I point out that this question is posted in the 'Ask an aviation attorney' section?

It's not the "Ask-the-peanut-gallery" section. But perhaps I misunderstand the purpose.

-Fox

 

[killbilly]

Should I point out that this question is posted in the 'Ask an aviation attorney' section?

It's not the "Ask-the-peanut-gallery" section. But perhaps I misunderstand the purpose.

-Fox

You're not wrong. But the point is that this is a specific situation that probably shouldn't be discussed on any forum, regardless of that forum's focus.

 

[ctab5060X]

Should I point out that this question is posted in the 'Ask an aviation attorney' section?

It's not the "Ask-the-peanut-gallery" section. But perhaps I misunderstand the purpose.

-Fox

And how many of us said to stop posting and "Lawyer up!"

 

[ppragman]

And how many of us said to stop posting and "Lawyer up!"

Lawyer Up, Hit the gym, log off reddit.

 

[🦈💜]

You're not wrong. But the point is that this is a specific situation that probably shouldn't be discussed on any forum, regardless of that forum's focus.

I don't really get that. I would like to think that the answer to his particular questions were more broadly applicable than his particular case, which means it would behoove us to know what the right answer is.

Personally I think there's way too much secrecy in aviation. It's so silly. It results in so much compartmentalization of knowledge, and 'pet ideas' about what's legal/etc...

-Fox

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The internet isn't anonymous. You should know this. There is no attorney/client privilege when you're posting your life story on the internet.

 

[Itchy]

I personally would not sign it.

When you're sitting there on one side of the table, and everyone else is on the other side of the table, and they all have water bottles, and you don't........ Admit nothing, deny everything, and make counter accusations.