Regional Losses

greaper007 said:
So what's the most profitable plane for domestic flights? I would guess a 737 or A320.
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Mmmm....Either a MD-11 filled with 12inch by 12 inch envelopes weighing 12 ounces.

or

A 737 with Khaki wearing flight attendants serving peanuts and traveling anywhere through baltimore, chicago, nashville, or dallas....Shamoo paint job doesn't hurt ;-)

Everything else is a losing proposition.
 
So what about carriers like Horizon that are switching their orders from RJs to Q400 Turbo props?

Do you guys think this will be the new trend? I figure if there are airlines trading in their 50-90 seat jets for 19-50 seat turbo props it would be a good thing for CFIs wanting to get hired since regionals will need about twice as many pilots.

Other than Bombardier, who else is currently making props at the moment? Is Raytheon still making 1900s? It seems Bombardier may have this market cornered for a few years.
 
Timbuff10 said:
Other than Bombardier, who else is currently making props at the moment? Is Raytheon still making 1900s? It seems Bombardier may have this market cornered for a few years.
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And you better believe they're promoting it, big time. I've been seeing a heck of a lot of ads with their turboprops with the tagline wake up and smell the profits and a cup of coffee.
 
I heard they are telling the CMR guys they might shut the place down if they don't approve the concessions before them. Any word on the street?
 
Chris_Ford said:
I think it's a notion of your generation of pilots that some "dues" must be paid.
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I don't think that's a notion restricted to a particular generation. I think it's a notion that's related to life experience. Some people have experiences that lead them to believe that anything can be, and should be able to be, bought with money.

Others have life experiences that lead them to believe that if you want something, you have to earn it.
 
mtsu_av8er said:
I don't think that's a notion restricted to a particular generation. I think it's a notion that's related to life experience. Some people have experiences that lead them to believe that anything can be, and should be able to be, bought with money.

Others have life experiences that lead them to believe that if you want something, you have to earn it.
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Bravo! Well said!
 
mtsu_av8er said:
Others have life experiences that lead them to believe that if you want something, you have to earn it.
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Yeah, just ask, oh, say, Jim Kelly and Dan Marino about that. All the money you could ever want, and yet, no Super Bowl ring.

Come to think of it, ask Reggie Bush in January 2007 how he feels. He'll be filthy rich, but all that money won't get him a 100 yard game.
 
B767Driver said:
I heard they are telling the CMR guys they might shut the place down if they don't approve the concessions before them. Any word on the street?
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I also heard that mesa is bidding on 108 of comair's planes. Has anyone else heard this?
 
Maybe not ... not just yet

B767Driver said:
FlyI gone. XJT downsizing. CMR giving back airplanes. Mesaba getting skinnier. Are we finding out that the RJ economics are failing?
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While I agree that the day of the 50-seater is about to end, let's look at your examples:

FlyI: Perhaps CR7s or CR9s would have been a better option for them. ACA / FlyI management knew that they'd have too many CR2s to start the dance, and dumping many of them was part of the original plan. However, the fare slashing done by jetBlue and United, the enormous jump in the cost of fuel, and a US Airways that wouldn't die are what brought that dream to an end. Even with A319s running all their routes, they still would have failed.

XJT: downsizing because CAL is courting someone new with lower costs. Anyone with a brain knew that as soon as the XJT folks got a great contract, big daddy CAL would look for a replacement. Perhaps a few of those ERJs will go away, but my guess is that they'll still be here, just operated by someone else.

CMR: getting the boot because they were the one pilot group to make great progress, and now they cost "too much" for senior DAL management. So, while CMR parks aircraft, Freedom and Shuttle America bring out more to replace them.

Mesaba: again, a senior management group wanting to get on the "new contractor lowers costs" bandwagon. Mesaba is a senior group, with great work rules, great payrates, etc. How can an Avro NOT make money? It's not much smaller than a baby -9, and the personnel costs are lower. But, if you find a new company with lower HR costs, you can make more money for the top brass.

So, to that extent, the RJs aren't going away. They're just being shifted amongst operators. Keep in mind though that the passengers are tired of walking in rain / sleet / snow / slush / JetA / APU and engine exhaust to get to their airplane. The idea of no middle seat is great, until you sit in the window or aisle seat that really isn't very comfortable. Four hours on an E145 or CR7? Yeup, that's insanity, and passengers WILL look for a mainline aircraft.

RJ economics "fail" when senior management sniffs out a carrier with lower operating costs. Do they really fail at creating a profit? Nope, not when a whopping $6.00 per ticket pays for the entire crew (IMHO).

greaper007 said:
So what's the most profitable plane for domestic flights? I would guess a 737 or A320.
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There is not answer to that. What city pair? What kind of loads? What time of day? How much cargo is available to haul on that route? How much US Mail is available on that route?

CASM is a management tool. Sure, the 757 / 737 / A3XX has a lower CASM than a CRJ200 or E145. But what happens if you only have 45 passengers on a regular basis? Now the 757 is a massive money loser and the 50-seater is the optimal choice.
 
joel_MQY said:
Incorrect. They might not call them hubs, but they are. MDW, BWI, MCO,etc.
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Exactly. Chances are, you'll probably fly thru those, if not including OAK or LAS enroute to where ever you're going.
 
The idea of no middle seat is great, until you sit in the window or aisle seat that really isn't very comfortable. Four hours on an E145 or CR7? Yeup, that's insanity, and passengers WILL look for a mainline aircraft.
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Sorry but I've yet to sit in ANY middle seat that was more comfortable than an RJ seat. The pitch is usually higher in the RJs, and that's really what matters anyway.

Of course, big guys like me hate middle seats because GUARANTEED we will be rubbing shoulders (and fighting for the armrest) with those next to us.

My only real complaint is about the CRJ - the window is about 4 inches too low!
 
The only thing that is comfortable on any airplane, RJ or mainline, is if there is an empty seat beside you or youre sittin in first class.
 
Timbuff10 said:
Other than Bombardier, who else is currently making props at the moment? Is Raytheon still making 1900s? It seems Bombardier may have this market cornered for a few years.
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They still make the ATR 42 & 72: http://www.atraircraft.com/

Embraer still advertises the EMB-120.

I don't think the Beech 1900 is still in production though. The BAe Jetstreams and ATP are gone I believe also. The Fairchild Dornier 328 is gone. The Saabs are gone. I'm sure there are still plenty of the above on the secondhand market though.


Mike
 
Mr_Creepy said:
Sorry but I've yet to sit in ANY middle seat that was more comfortable than an RJ seat. The pitch is usually higher in the RJs, and that's really what matters anyway.

Of course, big guys like me hate middle seats because GUARANTEED we will be rubbing shoulders (and fighting for the armrest) with those next to us.

My only real complaint is about the CRJ - the window is about 4 inches too low!
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Reread what I wrote. "The idea of NO middle seat ..." That's been the selling point: no middle seat. But, the two you have aren't as comfortable as something on mainline, hence it's a baseless selling point. Never did I state that I'd take a middle seat over something else.
 
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