Regional airlines pros and cons

[BobDDuck]

This thread got me curious so I ran an analysis ...

Average U.S. domestic stage lengths for narrow and wide bodies have increased over time - albeit slightly from narowbodies.

But ... RJ stage lengths haven't changed at all, nor have those for turboprops. I would have thought those bigger ERJs would be doing longer stages as they replaced the CRJ 200 - but apparently not.

Turboprops are still just doing 126nm average trips - flights that probably won't even be allowed in a few years if the U.S. takes a cue from Europe.

View attachment 61683

This is interesting to me. First of all, is it US, or world data? Secondly, I think you'd have to go back to 1998 to see the increase in stage length of NB as they came off the regional routes to be replaced by RJs. You'd then see an increase in RJ stage length in 2002 - 2005 as the (relatively) long thin routes started up on the bigger CRJs and then the EMBs. I wonder what drove the increase in WB stage length. 2005 was too early for the long range introduced by the 787/380/350.

 

[Murdoughnut]

This is interesting to me. First of all, is it US, or world data? Secondly, I think you'd have to go back to 1998 to see the increase in stage length of NB as they came off the regional routes to be replaced by RJs. You'd then see an increase in RJ stage length in 2002 - 2005 as the (relatively) long thin routes started up on the bigger CRJs and then the EMBs. I wonder what drove the increase in WB stage length. 2005 was too early for the long range introduced by the 787/380/350.

I did it as U.S. to U.S. so domestic flying only. My data doesn't go back before 2004 unfortunately, but that's an interesting point.

 

[Murdoughnut]

This is interesting to me. First of all, is it US, or world data? Secondly, I think you'd have to go back to 1998 to see the increase in stage length of NB as they came off the regional routes to be replaced by RJs. You'd then see an increase in RJ stage length in 2002 - 2005 as the (relatively) long thin routes started up on the bigger CRJs and then the EMBs. I wonder what drove the increase in WB stage length. 2005 was too early for the long range introduced by the 787/380/350.

Since I ran it as U.S. domestic only the share of widebody flights was pretty low (less than 2%). So it's a small sample of cases - although it is interesting that widebody domestic had dropped more or less every year with the exception of 2021 where it spiked as a result of all things COVID.

By equipment type it breaks out like this over time. 330 domestic stages surged in 2007/2008 and then started to drop off. 777 domestic stages rose considerably around 2012/2013 and 787 stages jumped starting in 2019.

 

[BobDDuck]

Since I ran it as U.S. domestic only the share of widebody flights was pretty low (less than 2%). So it's a small sample of cases - although it is interesting that widebody domestic had dropped more or less every year with the exception of 2021 where it spiked as a result of all things COVID.

View attachment 61688

By equipment type it breaks out like this over time. 330 domestic stages surged in 2007/2008 and then started to drop off. 777 domestic stages rose considerably around 2012/2013 and 787 stages jumped starting in 2019.

View attachment 61687

There wasn't a ton of 330 flying in 2007. Just USAirways and Northwest. In 2007 Airways tried to get creative in aircraft utilization and started putting domestic segments in the plane between Transatlantic flying.

I'm not sure about the 777 surge in 2012, but very few US companies had the 787 in any quantities until 2018, so that's the bump there.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

This thread got me curious so I ran an analysis ...

Average U.S. domestic stage lengths for narrow and wide bodies have increased over time - albeit slightly from narowbodies.

But ... RJ stage lengths haven't changed at all, nor have those for turboprops. I would have thought those bigger ERJs would be doing longer stages as they replaced the CRJ 200 - but apparently not.

Turboprops are still just doing 126nm average trips - flights that probably won't even be allowed in a few years if the U.S. takes a cue from Europe.

View attachment 61683

Delta has replaced the longer RJ routes like JFK-DFW with the A220 and relegated the bigger RJs to shorter routes. I believe the original plan was to replace all of the 200 routes with two class RJs, but they changed their mind right before the pandemic.

 

[alaskadrifter]

Right... If we are talking about bringing back turboprops because it makes financial sense then why get rid of a gold mine? As much as I'd happily love to see that thing parked in the desert. Hell if they need help sending 'em to the desert I would, good riddance.

If you have paid for 200s it probably wouldn’t make sense. Depending on the turboprop it could be significantly cheaper on shorter routes though.

I’m curious to what Embrear does with their turboprop concept.

 

[tcco94]

If you have paid for 200s it probably wouldn’t make sense. Depending on the turboprop it could be significantly cheaper on shorter routes though.

I’m curious to what Embrear does with their turboprop concept.

Skywest owns a majority of their aircraft, but not really up to them. The partners make the choices for them. But financially I'm sure they'd love go keep the 200 around a lot longer than the partners want.

Either way whatever concept gets thrown out there we can always count on Mesa to try it out first. Dominoes drone delivery, cargo 737 flying or electric airplanes. Anything to stay alive.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I remember flying 737s and DC9-30s into Roanoke, Burlington, Ithaca, Elmira, Knoxville, Allentown, Erie and many more small towns in the late 90s.

Of course there’s some young kid out there brand new in a RJ thinking, dang I hope mainline doesn’t steal our flying!

 

[tcco94]

Of course there’s some young kid out there brand new in a RJ thinking, dang I hope mainline doesn’t steal our flying!

Look at all this sweet Alaska 175 flying we are getting!!!

Sad but true story...

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Look at all this sweet Alaska 175 flying we are getting!!!

Sad but true story...

Pilots are notoriously self centered and short sighted. (Both regional and mainline)

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Pilots are notoriously self centered and short sighted. (Both regional and mainline)

Scope, scope, scope, scope, scope.

 

[roundout]

Scope, scope, scope, scope, scope.

The ultimate scope: work for a carrier so cheap it would cost them more to sub flying to SkyBest than to keep it in house.

 

[jynxyjoe]

"Skywest is a major!" There got it in first.

If we undercut skywest they might start another jumpseat war, let's go easy here, i barely survived the last one.

 

[tcco94]

"Skywest is a major!" There got it in first.

If we undercut skywest they might start another jumpseat war, let's go easy here, i barely survived the last one.

Rumor has it that Envoy is mainline

 

[ozziecat35]

Of course there’s some young kid out there brand new in a RJ thinking, dang I hope mainline doesn’t steal our flying!

I fully understand and agree with this sentiment. That said, playing devils advocate, there are regional pilots trying their damndest to get hired at said majors / ULCC’s with no calls, and until then, just praying the flying that feeds our families and provides health insurance doesn’t suddenly get gobbled back up by the mainline partner. I agree, it’s not the regional’s flying, and if there was a way to transition every RJ driver to mainline / etc, sign me up. In the meantime, your statement ignore’s the human factor. It wasn’t the current RJ drivers fault that scope was sold in the first place, we are merely cogs in the wheel.

 

[Max Power]

My wag is that turbo props make a come back, as they make economic sense for small communities.

One thing about turboprops: Passengers HATE them, even those lucky enough to have air service because of them. The general traveling public sees props and they still think “converted WWII bomber” or “puddle jumper” even if it was built yesterday and does 500 mph.

UAL had C5 get rid of our Dashes a year before the leases were up just to end turboprops in the system in 2018. And now the grousing about ending single cabin 50 seat RJ has the same feel to it.

 

[alaskadrifter]

One thing about turboprops: Passengers HATE them, even those lucky enough to have air service because of them. The general traveling public sees props and they still think “converted WWII bomber” or “puddle jumper” even if it was built yesterday and does 500 mph.

UAL had C5 get rid of our Dashes a year before the leases were up just to end turboprops in the system in 2018. And now the grousing about ending single cabin 50 seat RJ has the same feel to it.

Well they WERE Dashes . The newer turboprops are leaps and bounds better than the older generation of 30 seat turboprops. Alaska doesn’t appear to have a problem filling their Qs. Granted that is a different market and I’m sure the 175 will take over more Q flying where it makes sense. I’m just a weirdo who loves turboprops though, so I might be biased.

 

[Wardogg]

And now the grousing about ending single cabin 50 seat RJ has the same feel to it.

The same complaint I always heard deadheading on company metal was not having internet on the 145s. A 2 HR flight with nothing to do in this day and age is excruciatingly slow.

 

[Max Power]

Well they WERE Dashes . The newer turboprops are leaps and bounds better than the older generation of 30 seat turboprops. Alaska doesn’t appear to have a problem filling their Qs. Granted that is a different market and I’m sure the 175 will take over more Q flying where it makes sense. I’m just a weirdo who loves turboprops though, so I might be biased.

Yeah, Alaska is a different market, I guess it’s more accepted that you’ll be on a turboprop out west or in AK? I loved our Dashes and it would have made much more sense to keep us in the Q400. Which most passengers still hated. My initial commute from PIT-IAD was on Republics Q400’s and people still complained.

 

[Max Power]

The same complaint I always heard deadheading on company metal was not having internet on the 145s. A 2 HR flight with nothing to do in this day and age is excruciatingly slow.

Amazes me, when I ride in the back, how many people don’t bring ANYTHING to do on an airplane. And then they sit there and check their watch for two hours. But yes, in this day and age,Wi-Fi is expected and our 145’s don’t have it either.