Regional Airlines Lower Bar for Pilots

Props Seggy. Anybody seen any reports on oversea's guys training here then going back home to fly right seat in Airbus/737's- etc.. I would think there would be much more risk oversea's then here. Anybody think its going to make training look bad here ?
 
seaav8tor said:
There is a belief held within the industry that pilots, irrespective of the cuts in wages and benefits taken to date are still grossly overpaid. The draconian cuts from post 911 bankruptcies were just the beginning. From this point forward look for modest gains that do not keep pace with inflation to continue the reduction of pilot labor costs. 10-15 years out look for pilot compensation to be something that resembles this:

(MAX pay in 2007 dollars)

Wide body CA 125K/yr
Narrow CA 75K
RJ CA 50K
Turboprop CA 35K

Wide FO 75K
Narrow FO 50K
RJ FO 30K
Turboprop FO 25K

www.aircon.org
Click to expand...

I disagree. ALPA's polling over the past two years has indicated something unexpected: the young, newest generation of airline pilots is the most militant that the Association has seen in decades. The ultra-militant proposal that the APA made last month to AMR with 50% payraise demands is only the beginning. Over the next decade, we're going to see the same thing at many other carriers. The younger pilots aren't willing to sell their souls for job security as the last generation of mainline pilots have. I predict a series of bar-raising contracts during the next period of pattern bargaining, beginning with the CAL contract.
 
seaav8tor said:
There is a belief held within the industry that pilots, irrespective of the cuts in wages and benefits taken to date are still grossly overpaid. The draconian cuts from post 911 bankruptcies were just the beginning. From this point forward look for modest gains that do not keep pace with inflation to continue the reduction of pilot labor costs. 10-15 years out look for pilot compensation to be something that resembles this:

(MAX pay in 2007 dollars)

Wide body CA 125K/yr
Narrow CA 75K
RJ CA 50K
Turboprop CA 35K

Wide FO 75K
Narrow FO 50K
RJ FO 30K
Turboprop FO 25K

www.aircon.org
Click to expand...

Probably not a bad guess... BUT corporate flight dept salaries are getting better.
 
PCL_128 said:
I disagree. ALPA's polling over the past two years has indicated something unexpected: the young, newest generation of airline pilots is the most militant that the Association has seen in decades. The ultra-militant proposal that the APA made last month to AMR with 50% payraise demands is only the beginning. Over the next decade, we're going to see the same thing at many other carriers. The younger pilots aren't willing to sell their souls for job security as the last generation of mainline pilots have. I predict a series of bar-raising contracts during the next period of pattern bargaining, beginning with the CAL contract.
Click to expand...

I'm not laughing, but management is. They think ALPA is bankrupt and coming apart at the seams. USAirways arbitration bloodbath, Paycuts, Pension terminations, Inability to organize (recent SkyWest), ALPA revenue losses from reductions in pay. The list goes on. The management teams are standing at a distance and laughing.

I'm on your side and I would love to agree with you, but it's simply not reality. Inertia in the wrong direction has built as ALPA has lost strength.

Oh, and management teams are aware of the ultra-militant issue and they are countering it (laugh if you want) in the hiring process for new hires. Psyc testing, interview, etc to identify and eliminate potential future militants. They think (or hope) the militant ones they have already hired will just get fed up and leave.

www.aircon.org
 
Just because many of the most militant supporters are young, doesn't also mean most of the idiotic/apathetic ones are not as well.
 
seaav8tor said:
I'm not laughing, but management is. They think ALPA is bankrupt and coming apart at the seams. USAirways arbitration bloodbath, Paycuts, Pension terminations, Inability to organize (recent SkyWest), ALPA revenue losses from reductions in pay. The list goes on. The management teams are standing at a distance and laughing.

I'm on your side and I would love to agree with you, but it's simply not reality. Inertia in the wrong direction has built as ALPA has lost strength.

Oh, and management teams are aware of the ultra-militant issue and they are countering it (laugh if you want) in the hiring process for new hires. Psyc testing, interview, etc to identify and eliminate potential future militants. They think (or hope) the militant ones they have already hired will just get fed up and leave.

www.aircon.org
Click to expand...

Again, I disagree. We'll find out in the next few years, but I'm confident that we'll be making very large strides forward. ALPA is in an excellent financial position and can weather pretty much any storm. The leadership and the membership are ready for a fight. Management is underestimating the Association.
 
BTW,

I totally hope you are correct. I'm pretty worried that 'my generation' is going to #### everything up even more than it already is.

:D

As long as more people are educated like a majority of the people here... I won't be too worried.
 
JDMcFly said:
BTW,

I totally hope you are correct. I'm pretty worried that 'my generation' is going to #### everything up even more than it already is.

:D

As long as more people are educated like a majority of the people here... I won't be too worried.
Click to expand...

I used to worry about the same thing. Then I upgraded and started flying with a lot of the younger guys, and I realized just how pissed off and militant most of them were. Yes, there were exceptions, but most were completely committed to taking any steps necessary to get what they felt they deserved. As a union leader, my biggest problem wasn't with the young guy, my problem was with the regional "lifer" in his late 40s or 50s who had so much invested in his regional airline. He was willing to take pretty much any abuse just to make 100% certain that his airline didn't lose flying, or worse yet, cease to exist. The young guys just don't seem to have those same concerns. They have backup plans, degrees in other fields, or they just plain don't give a &^%$.
 
PCL_128 said:
Again, I disagree. We'll find out in the next few years,
Click to expand...

I hope your foresight on this topic is more accurate than your oil prediction over on FI.

Not making fun of you, I just chuckle every time I see "Mark my words, oil will be below 40/bbl this time next year" posted Aug 05.
 
frog_flyer said:
I hope your foresight on this topic is more accurate than your oil prediction over on FI.

Not making fun of you, I just chuckle every time I see "Mark my words, oil will be below 40/bbl this time next year" posted Aug 05.
Click to expand...

Yeah, definitely a bad prediction. :) Oil prices aren't my expertise, though. Union issues are. My prediction of a new ASA contract by fall was correct. Why can't anyone ever remember that? ;)
 
mtsu_av8er said:
Ah, yes. They sound like fine guys.
Click to expand...

As far as I'm concerned, they're a dream come true. A large block of voting members willing to walk away from their jobs at the drop of a hat brings the union true power. If we had had that attitude at the legacies over the past five years, then things wouldn't have fallen to the point they have.
 
Listen, I hope you're right, PCL, but seaavi8or has a point. Our place has hired a boatload of Skywest guys lately. Why? Precisely because they are non-union and are looking for that mentality.

Jokes on them though, they hired at least one of the guys who was on the ALPA organizing committee. LOL!
 
Velocipede said:
Listen, I hope you're right, PCL, but seaavi8or has a point. Our place has hired a boatload of Skywest guys lately. Why? Precisely because they are non-union and are looking for that mentality.

Jokes on them though, they hired at least one of the guys who was on the ALPA organizing committee. LOL!
Click to expand...

I too agree with seaavi8or in this...I think Colgan and Skywest have many of these "militant" young guys who should have voted ALPA, but didn't. Unions in this country are faltering and I think in the next 25 years will pretty much cease to exist. Was it Ford that got a new contract and then fired 15K employees? There are already a lot of people out there willing to do this work for crap, and it sure seems like (insert overly priced flight academy here) isn't hurting for business. I hope I am wrong in all of this, but I can see the regionals flying 100+ seat "RJs" in the next few years...and they are going to do it for crap wages and QOL.
 
PCL_128 said:
As far as I'm concerned, they're a dream come true. A large block of voting members willing to walk away from their jobs at the drop of a hat brings the union true power. If we had had that attitude at the legacies over the past five years, then things wouldn't have fallen to the point they have.
Click to expand...

Do you really think that if push comes to shove, that they WOULD walk away? I don't think that they would and I bet management thinks the same thing. As for the legacy guys I think that a lot of the current workforce is happy to have a job at the mainline. Those that were sick of it have already left...
 
Not many of the mainline pilots can walk away and make $100k-$200k/yr at a comparable job. That's why so many voted for concessions after 9/11. Let's put ourselves in their shoes, I really can not blame them.

Heck for me to walk away as a regional FO, it would be hard to replace that income with my current level of education and experience. Most would probably be in that situation too.
 
PCL_128 said:
I used to worry about the same thing. Then I upgraded and started flying with a lot of the younger guys, and I realized just how pissed off and militant most of them were. Yes, there were exceptions, but most were completely committed to taking any steps necessary to get what they felt they deserved. As a union leader, my biggest problem wasn't with the young guy, my problem was with the regional "lifer" in his late 40s or 50s who had so much invested in his regional airline. He was willing to take pretty much any abuse just to make 100% certain that his airline didn't lose flying, or worse yet, cease to exist. The young guys just don't seem to have those same concerns. They have backup plans, degrees in other fields, or they just plain don't give a &^%$.
Click to expand...

Or in my case I've got all three!
 
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