hambone
Well-Known Member
Do you mean to say you've been sitting around at ZNY for 6 months, getting paid, but not doing any actual controlling? That must be a nice feeling to have a 6 month paid vacation and have a job at the end of it.
Reasons For Washouts
- Thread starter Trojan
- Start date
Do you mean to say you've been sitting around at ZNY for 6 months, getting paid, but not doing any actual controlling? That must be a nice feeling to have a 6 month paid vacation and have a job at the end of it.
genot
Well-Known Member
Centers like ZNY are more geared toward training people with no experience. You don't exactly have the luxury of starting out at a small facility like a tower in BFE and learning the ropes at a center. At each facility you will be given a set number of hours to certify on each position. Centers have always had to allow for that influx of people who have never worked a plane in their life. The training hours at centers reflect that, while high level terminals still use the hours to train that assume that if you're here you've made it elsewhere at a facility that at times could get reasonably busy. New hires going to N90 A80 C90 LAX etc are going to be expected to have the same basic ability and trainability as someone who has worked level 8 or 9 traffic for a few years. You already start behind the 8 ball, thats why you have crazy washout rates at large terminal facilities.
I did my share of sitting around in ZDV too, but the CPC ERAM training backlog finally cleared up and I've been able to work some positions. D1 last month.
Ceiynt
New Member
I did my share of sitting around in ZDV too, but the CPC ERAM training backlog finally cleared up and I've been able to work some positions. D1 last month.
Going to ZDV after OKC. I'm glad to hear the new training is coming up to speed. I was afraid that as soon as I got there, I'd be sitting around doing nothing while all the senior people got up to speed still.
How is is there? Did my tour, and that was about it.
Barty
Well-Known Member
Agreed. I'm only on month 2 myself (I can't believe its been that long) and reading LOAs and monitoring only goes so far each day to keep you somewhat busy/entertained.
bippoptl
Well-Known Member
I have read every LOA, the .65, and everything else SOOOOO many times. Monitoring is now just boring. (unless they let me bootleg). Thank god I start class on the 7th. Do you know when you get to the next phase?
Barty
Well-Known Member
Well, the group ahead of us doesn't start until the 7th as well and more than likely they'll start another R side class after that. I'm expecting that we'll probably go to D school in May or June, assuming that ERAM doesn't get in the way, which doesn't seem too likely.
They've cracked down pretty hard on bootleg time here. A sup was recently demoted for allowing a couple of trainees in another area to get some bootleg time after the training department decreed that nobody is to get any time on any sector that they aren't officially training on or are certified on. That stemmed from someone who washed out a year or so ago whining that they didn't get as much bootleg time as someone else! Pretty much the only thing we can do is mess with URET a little (looking at routes, checking a/c on frequency, etc). Anything that has any appearance of being a control function is pretty much verboten.
You know this seems to come up from time to time... I personally don't agree with not being able to bootleg (but I understand the reasons why it's not aloud). To be honest from what it seems most of the people that checked out pretty quickly in the late 80's early 90's got a decent amount of bootleg time. I would imagine the people that get the most bootleg time are the people that are liked and don't mess up. Plus anyways the people that aren't doing as well don't need the added complexity of bootleg time (or atleast not yet in their training). But, what do I know this is all my opinion. Oh, and if I do washout (which could happen and would totally suck for lack of a better word) there's no way I would say something like I couldn't check out because I didn't get as much bootleg time as someone else, or I couldn't check out because people were making fun of me, or I didn't like my trainers. Sometimes you just have to suck it up, roll with the punches, and do what's asked of you. And even if you say those things and they give you more training hours, you can only imagine what your other co-workers are now going to think of you...
Wyopoke79
New Member
:dunno:
Who cares what your coworkers think of you...if your career is in the pooper...and you want more hours....do or say what you gotta do to get them... this isn't a popularity comtest... This is your career.
Who cares what your coworkers think of you...if your career is in the pooper...and you want more hours....do or say what you gotta do to get them... this isn't a popularity comtest... This is your career.
Just saying it's going to make life harder when you through someone else under the bus. Also do you really think you're going to get checked out if no one likes you, not even your own trainers? Don't get me wrong I do understand protecting yourself and your career.
Wyopoke79
New Member
I meant more of a last resort kind of thing... I agree that you never throw another controller under the bus.... Unless its the only option..The Nuclear Option...:beer:
haha, I hear yeah. I like that nuclear option idea.
Lalexf
Well-Known Member
Hey there folks...Long time no see!!! My advise from things I have heard, Most importantly........Take ownership for your work. There was a girl that washed out of VGT because she blamed everything on everything and everyone else. She never took resposibility for herself. Not only is it a major turn off for those that have come before you and guaranteed know more than you do but you CANNOT learn anything if you are not open to constructive critisism. You are not perfect, even when you get checked out. So, take a breath, listen, apply what you are told and cry to mommy when you go home.
That's my 2 cents!!!!
Good luck everyone. I love my job and it was totally worth the wait!!!!
That's my 2 cents!!!!
Good luck everyone. I love my job and it was totally worth the wait!!!!
Rosstafari
Hello, this is Orlando mayor Buddy Dyer
Wow, haven't heard from you forever. Welcome back. Glad it's been working out.
I have been an instructor since 1989, I worked with over 30 people, washed out about 5 and here is what I will tell you.
attitude, if you go into a facility with a know it all attitude, you had best KNOW IT ALL, including how to separate traffic, because the amount of help you will get will be small. You're an ex-military controller who has controlled airplanes at any base and are going to a center, you really do not have a big advantage. Confidence is good, be cocky is not, if yo don't know the difference, you're already in trouble.
Open Mind, this goes with attitude and to me is the most important, be a sponge, absorb everything you can.
Study, look, listen and learn. The people you are working with have already done what you need to do and many believe the system has gotten easier. So you MUST study and learn the information given to you. When you get to your area, know your map, like you know your phone number, study it all the time. Know the LOA, instructors and others will ask you things all the time and they will expect the right answers.
Give 100%, because if you don't want the job, why should I bust my butt, the 10% extra pay is not always worth the extra stress to me and I already have the job. I have worked with students who where getting ready to wash out and if they put in 100%, I will give them everything I have to help them make it, but they have to want it.
When you get to your area, controllers will joke with you (some times we are weird people) and it is ok to joke back. As time goes by, you will learn who you can joke with and who you can not.
Remember this, not everyone is made to do this job.
Most controllers will tell you this is a great job, we are not always happy with whom we work for, but we love the job. Don't expect a lot of pats on the back, but controllers will tell you if your doing it right.
Good Luck to all of you
attitude, if you go into a facility with a know it all attitude, you had best KNOW IT ALL, including how to separate traffic, because the amount of help you will get will be small. You're an ex-military controller who has controlled airplanes at any base and are going to a center, you really do not have a big advantage. Confidence is good, be cocky is not, if yo don't know the difference, you're already in trouble.
Open Mind, this goes with attitude and to me is the most important, be a sponge, absorb everything you can.
Study, look, listen and learn. The people you are working with have already done what you need to do and many believe the system has gotten easier. So you MUST study and learn the information given to you. When you get to your area, know your map, like you know your phone number, study it all the time. Know the LOA, instructors and others will ask you things all the time and they will expect the right answers.
Give 100%, because if you don't want the job, why should I bust my butt, the 10% extra pay is not always worth the extra stress to me and I already have the job. I have worked with students who where getting ready to wash out and if they put in 100%, I will give them everything I have to help them make it, but they have to want it.
When you get to your area, controllers will joke with you (some times we are weird people) and it is ok to joke back. As time goes by, you will learn who you can joke with and who you can not.
Remember this, not everyone is made to do this job.
Most controllers will tell you this is a great job, we are not always happy with whom we work for, but we love the job. Don't expect a lot of pats on the back, but controllers will tell you if your doing it right.
Good Luck to all of you
Very good point and learn from your mistakes and actions.
I tell my students that telling me "I was going to take care of that" or "I was going to do that" and I if have to key up to separate the aircraft, it was too late. I was going to......... is not a answer.
Remember, you are working off of someone else ticket and it will be how they see it.
jcpilot
Fly for show, vector for dough
Thank you for that. As a developmental about to hit the floor, I appreciate all the advice I can get.
bamaral13
Well-Known Member
While being at my facility, I've only seen one person wash out and it was simply due to the fact that he froze up when working traffic.
As mentioned before, attitude is the biggest factor of whether or not someone will make it. Your trainers don't expect you to know everything. That's why they call it training. But be responsible for material and information they hand you, and own up to your mistakes. Don't make excuses because controllers won't stand for it.
Sad to say, but people do wash out because of the people and/or facility they train under. There's a difference between the concept of real training and a "show me what you got" mentality. This is why certain facilities wash out nearly everyone in their training programs. The reality is that there really are poor trainers out there that shouldn't be training others. Those poor trainers don't want to take the time to really teach someone something about traffic at their facility, and expect their trainee to show them what they can already do.
As mentioned before, attitude is the biggest factor of whether or not someone will make it. Your trainers don't expect you to know everything. That's why they call it training. But be responsible for material and information they hand you, and own up to your mistakes. Don't make excuses because controllers won't stand for it.
Sad to say, but people do wash out because of the people and/or facility they train under. There's a difference between the concept of real training and a "show me what you got" mentality. This is why certain facilities wash out nearly everyone in their training programs. The reality is that there really are poor trainers out there that shouldn't be training others. Those poor trainers don't want to take the time to really teach someone something about traffic at their facility, and expect their trainee to show them what they can already do.
tykrtr
Well-Known Member
Well posted coops. Since the non-tract our facility has been about 2-2-3. That's 2 trainees that made it, 2 that might or might not, and three that are on the way or out the door (from our facility, that means you're looking to the Post Office for employment).
Our failures are simply not willing to put the effort into this job. One because he figured he couldn't do the job anyway, and another because he came from a military facility and figured he knew it all already. Those two have washed out on Clearance Delivery (possibly the easiest position in the facility).
Assuming you won't be in that category, heed the advice from the others posted here. Be humble, be nice, work hard, and for goodness sake, nobody cares what you did at the freakin' academy! You're going to learn how to do things at YOUR facility, and the reasons behind these techniques will become obvious as you apply them.
Good luck,
-TR
Our failures are simply not willing to put the effort into this job. One because he figured he couldn't do the job anyway, and another because he came from a military facility and figured he knew it all already. Those two have washed out on Clearance Delivery (possibly the easiest position in the facility).
Assuming you won't be in that category, heed the advice from the others posted here. Be humble, be nice, work hard, and for goodness sake, nobody cares what you did at the freakin' academy! You're going to learn how to do things at YOUR facility, and the reasons behind these techniques will become obvious as you apply them.
Good luck,
-TR