Milesar
Well-Known Member
Thats a bit dramatic. Hired at a legacy by 35 would not be bad by my books, still 30 years of flying if one decides to go all the way to 65.
RAH to operate E-190s for Midwest
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Thats a bit dramatic. Hired at a legacy by 35 would not be bad by my books, still 30 years of flying if one decides to go all the way to 65.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
What's it matter when all the domestic flying is outsourced?
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
The issue here, like it or not, is that MidEx had a scope clause that was destroyed, and they weren't even in BK when it happened. People need to start taking a hard look at the "legacy" carrier's scope clauses and figure out how to make them even more bulletproof.
Yeah, sure it sucks that Republic is now flying a 737 replacement for less than what many of us make to fly 50 seat RJs around. But, they are in negotiations so there are two potentially negative things to focus on. 1) What happens if these planes start flying around without a new contract at 99 seats (perfectly legal under their current agreement) or at 100 seats but with out a negotiated rate. 2) What happens if they do come to some deal but it's an absolute joke and pay rates are still terrible. Then I think we would probably see places like F9 and Spirit start to look towards doing the same thing MidEx did.
As somebody said, I can't believe I'm saying this, but right now I'm really hoping Southwest just takes over and that's the end of it.
Yeah, sure it sucks that Republic is now flying a 737 replacement for less than what many of us make to fly 50 seat RJs around. But, they are in negotiations so there are two potentially negative things to focus on. 1) What happens if these planes start flying around without a new contract at 99 seats (perfectly legal under their current agreement) or at 100 seats but with out a negotiated rate. 2) What happens if they do come to some deal but it's an absolute joke and pay rates are still terrible. Then I think we would probably see places like F9 and Spirit start to look towards doing the same thing MidEx did.
As somebody said, I can't believe I'm saying this, but right now I'm really hoping Southwest just takes over and that's the end of it.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
That means it's all international? Great, sign me up! I have less than zero interest in domestic flying anyway. Probably the absolute biggest reason I have no interest in Southwest.
</hijack>
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Now that's an idea.
How many flights into MKE does Southwest operate right now? Also, what about AirTran?
Looks like an excellent opportunity for those two to bring a quality product (respectively) into a market that is going to be pissed that it's local company was bamboozled.
That said, from what I've heard, Bedford has had a hard-on for his own "big boy" airline. Looks like he has his chance.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
I disagree my friend and I stand by my comment. You call standing behind the IBT backbone? The first and foremost problem Republic has is the Teamsters Union! And I don't care what argument can be made about "what they did for CHQ". Those days are gone. What have the Teamsters done lately and what are they doing today!? The answer is nothing and let me check...nothing. They can't even settle grievances!! How long is that log backed up? And lets not even open the corruption can of worms.
You seriously think the pilot group is united? The only thing I see the pilots being united about is being lazy! From day one, I have heard nothing but complaints about the IBT. Again, I'm not opening that can of worms, but once again the Teamsters prove they are corrupt and worthless, yet everybody wants to give them yet another chance? How about standing together to not only protect our current jobs, but also our future careers! You think this 190 ball is going to stop rolling at Midwest? I predict in less than 2 years we will have 190's in another mainline paint scheme. Keep the Teamsters around, and the possibilities for self destructing any future we may have at a mainline carrier are gone.
Sorry, but I don't want to finish my career at a National/Regional/sub contracted carrier. You want to argue that pilots don't have a choice and what will be is what will be. I beg to differ, and that sentiment only proves my theory about the group being lazy. We'd rather make excuses for the company's actions and take no responsibility for the blame. We would rather play the "lets wait and see" game with the IBT and hide our ID badges from other pilot groups. We would rather see Mr. Bedford swamp the industry with mainline aircraft all the while we collect paychecks the mainline pilots would strike against! But we don't have a choice right? In the history of the airline industry there has never been a pilot group that had a choice to refuse delivery of certain aircraft?
The problem is the IBT doesn't care what airplanes we fly. They don't care about this industry. Will they help to raise our pay? Okay, our dues are probably worth that much. Protecting our own scope is first and foremost, to this I will agree with you. But protecting our future career scope is equally as important. Yet time and again this does not seem to be an issue among our pilot group. Happy are we to fly such nice large airplanes. Happy are we to lay claim to our career Regional job. Well good. Good for all of those senior guys making tens of thousands of dollars less than their mainline counterparts. But as someone who desires to someday actually have respectable work rules and the possibility of a paycheck that matches those big words on the plane, that is not okay with me.
But what union can stop what is going on right? I have no answer for that, but what have the Teamsters done to make anyone believe they even have the balls to make a stand like this? I'm sorry, but if I were the EXCO chairman, I'd be talking with National about an immediate strike or job action. Hell, I would have motioned that with the Midwest deal! I'm not a hardcore ALPA kool-aid drinker like some, but I think its about time we start taking responsibility for our own actions and get a real union. At least if we still lose, we can at least say we tried like hell.
SoCalAprch said:
I don't think I'm the one with my head in the sand there bud. Here we have the perfect opportunity to ditch this joke of a union and yet everybody wants to "give them a chance". Will the Teamsters fight for better pay? Again, I think they owe us that much. But don't hold your breath that its going to be anywhere close to justifying Bedford's actions. So again, we'll just claim to be innocent pawns of a chess game and pretend like we have no choice.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Ah. . .the usual. . .
Short term gains at long term sacrifices game. Such a shame so many seem to play it, at the rest of our expensive.
Short term gains at long term sacrifices game. Such a shame so many seem to play it, at the rest of our expensive.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
Im not debating that what RAH has had for representation has been awful to this point, including CHQ days, and im not debating ALPA vs. IBT. Maybe you should redirect that back to rp.org, I dont think we're discussing that on this thread. Backbone has more to do with the pilot group and less to do with the union. ANyways, the cat was out of the bag in 2003 when this contract was signed, so its a moot point anyways right now, and you're dillusional if you think we could succesfully have people not fly this plane...I dont even think that would be legal.....Seriously, if you are so anti RAH, just put in your resignation. Lead the way.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
SWA, I don't think, has a huge presence in MKE. AirTran, on the other hand, is already beefing up operations there. They may smell blood and try to go in for the kill.....
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Well, there is good that can come form this bad. It is good that it was a relatively small mainline airline that got hit instead of a larger legacy. It is also good that it could be a wake up call for mainline pilots to get their butts in gear to protect their future. Obviously it is bad for the loss of jobs, but it could help protect the industry if the reaction by the pilots isn't to just bend over and take it.
Cactus_Cutter
Well-Known Member
I am really disappointed at the performance RAH has demonstrated over the past few years. When are they going to grow up and get rid of these EMB toys and get some Boeing products on the property!
No need to race to the bottom. I am already there.
No need to race to the bottom. I am already there.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Got a call about all this happening. I wanted to work for Midwest Airlines ever since I was a brand new FO at Colgan. Took one look at their operation and was sold. The Midwest pilots were a bunch of old turbo-prop hacks like myself (obviously much more than me) and wanted nothing more than to provide a good product at a fair cost.
I hate republic management. I hate midwest management. What a giant effing letdown
I hate republic management. I hate midwest management. What a giant effing letdown
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
I'd caution you on that thought..
I'm no airline pilot, but been here and FI long enough to know that almost everyone is an "internet tuff guy" during times like these. And a STFD type face to face...but when they vote..they tend to in fact be the opposite.
That or apathy roams large. And, everyone is so shocked and surprised when the TA passes, because "everyone" they talked to was voting no..
deadstick
Well-Known Member
Start with the standing Midwest pay scale that TPG and TH tried to whiddle down to sub-RAH rates.
And don't forget now that, now, USAirways will have another operator for the 190s. Do you think USAPA would trade the 190s for more Airbus deliveries? Mid Atlantic II, kinda? Would they be classified as "super-duper-larger-than-large regioanl jets?"
Forethought and scope -- both things of the past.
They just announced service a couple of days ago.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Was in there the other day. Sad to see only the CRJ200 and the EMB 175 really. I dont remember seeing a 717 there. Airtran was going in and out. I didnt see any SWA bids just yet. I think that's a new upcoming market for them, is it not?
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Wont ever say never, because we know that BB wants the 190 at USairways as well, BUT I do not see the pilots going for this. The 190's arent even in the count really towards the number of mainline planes being flown per the contract according to Kirby's last Crew News. However that would mean even more PILOTS out of a job. In addition the taking of these new planes are all replacements. USairways does not have the money to get the number of planes up, to bring even one more large regional jet into the system.
USAPA is addressing the issues of scope and really has a good case already filed in which they WILL win. Its pretty black and white that there is a clear violation and its by a large number.
On another note, has anyone thought of how this could be really bad if you are a pilot at RAH too? I mean fact is do many people see midwest being around much longer? I dont know how many pilots they have flying for Midwest but if midwest were to fold, would that not put nearly all your recalled pilots back onto the street? Or is management just counting on it lasting long enough, that when Midex does indeed fold, you all will have had enough attrition that it wont hurt anyone? I just could see this hurting those low on the RAH list in many ways too.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
I don't think its too far fetched to have a Union authorized job action bro! Here comes 190 aircraft. We have no payscale for this bird (100 seats). Not mention, this is not a larger small jet. Its a mainline aircraft. We have every reason to go forward with a job action if these airplanes are not accompanied by huge changes in pay and work rules.
Again, you can not debate what to do about the situation without discussing Unions. And let me make it clear - I am not anti-RAH! I enjoy my job with the company. I just don't want opportunity today in exchange for my long term career goals. I love the 170's and they fit perfect into the business model here. 190's are crossing the line. I think *we* as a pilot group should be more proactive. If our current union will not consider a job action, than we need to explore other options.
I am not suggesting a non-union job action - although I'd be the first on that wagon - but to stop making excuses and start looking for better ways to protect our future.
My point is - you can't come on JC and defend Republic when we as a pilot group, have made no attempt, through the union or not, to stop what is taking place. And I'm not just talking about 190's. Back when we put pilots on the street at Midwest, everyone defended RAH because "we had no choice" and there was nothing "we could do". After a few months, the dust settles down and that cup of coffee up front of that Midex colored 170 is tasting really good today.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Oh, they've been looking to cash out for a while. I think it's Aeromexico that's already been striking deals for Midwest's 717s.
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