Rafale kills F-22....

[USMCmech]

I hope they don't think that way as they are not above the law.

We don't. The Military is a microcosm of American society.

The military and veterans in this country display lower levels of crime than the civilian population. We are also better educated, more physically fit, and are overall better citizens as well.

Where the military IS different is the culture. We tend to have a very dark sense of humor, and the death of another human being is sometimes a job well done not a tragedy. It is an extremely masculine culture and women are only respected if they try to fit into that culture. These cultural differences are not always the result of insensitivity, but a necessary coping mechanism to deal with the job that we are required to do.

 

[Inverted]

Drawings, pics, etc that might "offend" someone. Hell, an Indian could offend someone. If someone is offended by a patch, I say get a freaking life, it's a patch or callsign. But that's me There are probably some patches that cross the line for sure and the one that comes to mind was a patch designed that said something to the effect "Sandy Hookers" and I would say that was too much. It was denied for good reason.

That makes me so mad. First of all, callsigns usually offend (rightfully so) the person who takes ownership of that callsign. More than half of the callsigns in my squadron were earned under some embarrassing circumstance, as they should be. Hell our flight surgeon was super hot, her last name was McGee, and her callsign was Tits. Our DIVO was short and asian, callsign Oddjob. I hate people taking the fun, and tradition out of the military.

 

[ryan1234]

Warrior culture? I appreciate the sacrifices made by those in uniform and their families but please if you/they expect differently, well that's part of the problem, our military isn't above the law.

A lot of people (and what sounds like yourself) don't quite understand that the military doesn't think it is above the law... quite the opposite... we're held to a much more stricter law. As a matter of fact, military members are generally guilty until proven innocent.

We could literally have a 69 page long thread on actual sexual harassment vs what it is made to seem like it. I'm not sure if your job requires you sit through hours and hours of sexual harassment lectures, watch agenda based movies, and spend certain "down days" not flying to talk and ponder sexual harassment.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

It is an extremely masculine culture and women are only respected if they try to fit into that culture.

Once the Navy got past the Hultgreen era and women had to be competent pilots and NFO's, everything else pretty much worked itself out.

Do your job, respect the service, respect its traditions, respect your peers, respect the sailors, be assertive enough to tell your peers when they are out of line or have trespassed on some personal boundaries - those women fit in, despite some reluctance to buy into sometimes sophomoric gonzo culture. In terms of attitudes and personalities, the Navy has always seen diversity among its men. The same is true among its women.

Those that try to "fit in" often have the most problems.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

I've heard that maybe it was the Navy exchange pilot flying, got killed but his landing was shiite hot returning to base

Nice.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Who is better at dog fighting, Air Force, Marine, or Navy pilots? Why?

Did I mention we are very good at landing?

 

[SurferLucas]

We could literally have a 69 page long thread on actual sexual harassment vs what it is made to seem like it. t.

I see what you did there, well played sir...well played...

 

[USMCmech]

Do your job, respect the service, respect its traditions, respect your peers, respect the sailors, be assertive enough to tell your peers when they are out of line or have trespassed on some personal boundaries - those women fit in, despite some reluctance to buy into sometimes sophomoric gonzo culture. In terms of attitudes and personalities, the Navy has always seen diversity among its men. The same is true among its women.

Somewhere floating around HMX was a picture of me and Tracy Coles (who was later the very first woman Marine One crew chief) sitting in a C-17. It was a 22 hour flight and we were bored to tears, so I was reading a Cosmo and she was reading a Maxim.

 

[Seggy]

Nobody is talking about breaking the law. Things that are illegal are still illegal, and should be prosecuted as such.

To make myself clear, I understand that 99.9999% of folks in the military understand that.

Things that are not illegal, but offend someone, somewhere (like a guy's callsign of "Poker" Hiney) are now being thrown in to the mix as being equal to sexual assault.

Once again, how do you expect potentially offending material to be handled now in light of the sexual harassment issues that have surfaced recently in the military? Many have called for changes to the IRS in the wake of a handful of people that may have been a tad to zealous in their jobs. So now the whole organization is under fire. Same concept for the military, decades long traditions ruined by a few. It really isn't hard to understand the reaction.

We're talking about putting so much focus on "not offending" someone that we are eroding the capability to do what the military exists for: kill people and break things in the name of national political objectives. Warrior culture means trained professionals who have the bravery and fortitude to go kill people to protect the rest of the country that doesn't choose to do so. What is ridiculous is this current expectation that the people that do that adhere to some monk-like behavioral and lifestyle standard.

Oh please, sometimes the most reserved folks are the best soldiers and sometimes the most boisterous aren't. I know a Medal of Honor winner who is one of the most reserved persons I know.

This warrior culture isn't cut and dry based on personality. You simply don't know how people will react when under fire. You don't need to be a raging • to kill people when called upon to do so by our country.

So, the American public not only wants a warrior who is willing to go commit cold-blooded violence in their name (while risking their own life), and yet also expects them to be non-drinking, non-swearing, non-sexual, eunuch monks when they are not out killing people. The public wants someone to go do violent things that they cannot stomach themselves, and also live to a higher moral standard than they do themselves.

Not at all. Once again you can't correlate how one reacts in combat simply if they drink, swear, or if they are a type A personality.

 

[Seggy]

Do you really not see the difference between "non-PC" and "sexual harassment"?

Yes.

Do you see why there is the reaction to the potentially offending call signs because of recent sexual harassment issues? Very similar to those calling for the destruction of the IRS because of the way a few handled themselves in the Cincinnati Office.

 

[Seggy]

So next time you're waking through an airport and you see a member in uniform, thank them and go about your day. It's a lot more complicated then you can ever realize.

Yes I realize it is complicated. What isn't thought is why there is a reaction to these call signs.

When I was Captain I used to brief the Flight Attendants to comp any drinks to those in the Military. A small gesture, but I am thankful for what they do.

 

[Seggy]

A lot of people (and what sounds like yourself) don't quite understand that the military doesn't think it is above the law... quite the opposite... we're held to a much more stricter law. As a matter of fact, military members are generally guilty until proven innocent.

I do understand that, but I wasn't sure folks here were saying this.

We could literally have a 69 page long thread on actual sexual harassment vs what it is made to seem like it. I'm not sure if your job requires you sit through hours and hours of sexual harassment lectures, watch agenda based movies, and spend certain "down days" not flying to talk and ponder sexual harassment.

Well I am sure IRS workers are now going to have hours upon hours of properly auditing organizations because of the action of a few. I am sure many right leaning military folks don't have a problem with that. So why should anyone have a problem if time is spent on sexual harassment issues because of the action of a few?

 

[Hacker15e]

This warrior culture isn't cut and dry based on personality. You simply don't know how people will react when under fire. You don't need to be a raging • to kill people when called upon to do so by our country.

Not at all. Once again you can't correlate how one reacts in combat simply if they drink, swear, or if they are a type A personality.

It is a pleasure to be told about warrior culture, and how men do/don't react when being shot it, by a man of your experience.

 

[Seggy]

It is a pleasure to be told about warrior culture, and how men do/don't react when being shot it, by a man of your experience.

So you are saying everyone acts the same when being shot at?

 

[Hacker15e]

So you are saying everyone acts the same when being shot at?

No, they most definitely do not.

However, this is something I learned when I was actually being shot at, and squadronmates were actually being shot at, more than 10 years ago.

 

[Hacker15e]

I'll put it this way, Seggy -- my reaction to your argument about "how it is, and how things should be" in a warfighting organization is about the same as your reaction to me if I started spouting off platitudes about how things are and should be in 121 flying operations.

I respect your knowledge and experience in your lane, and I expect you to correct me when I'm speaking outside of my lane of knowledge and experience.

 

[Seggy]

No, they most definitely do not.

However, this is something I learned when I was actually being shot at, and squadronmates were actually being shot at, more than 10 years ago.

It is not like it is top secret information. I am re-reading 'Citizen Soldier' now and Ambrose makes this point clear. Are you mad that this point debunks this 'Warrior Culture' point y'all are trying to make ?

 

[Hacker15e]

It is not like it is top secret information. I am re-reading 'Citizen Soldier' now and Ambrose makes this point clear. Are you mad that this point debunks this 'Warrior Culture' point y'all are trying to make ?

...and how much time in combat did Stephen Ambrose spend?

Regardless, what exactly does Mr Ambrose say about callsigns being tantamount to sexual harassment?

 

[Hacker15e]

T I know a Medal of Honor winner

BTW, nobody "wins" the Medal of Honor -- it isn't the Olympics. It is awarded.

 

[Seggy]

...and how much time in combat did Stephen Ambrose spend?

I believe none.

But he made that point from first hand accounts of World War II veterans.