QX2059 Jumpseater tries to shutdown engines

BEEF SUPREME said:
I think my instant Admiral Ackbar reaction to this summarizes everyone wrong with Aeromedical....
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:)
 
killbilly said:
The part that irks me is that as a jumpseater on the flight deck you are an additional crewmember.

Which means you need to be medically fit to fly.

He was nowhere near this and decided - yes, made a conscious decision - to leverage his privileges and occupy a jumpseat.

He might as well have been drunk.

And whatever sympathy I have is strained there because a 121 Captain goddamned well should know better.
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In the spirit of “there but for the grace of God go I” I’d like to amend my previous, somewhat holier-than-thou post.

Stress does funny things to the mind.

Had a very tense situation yesterday that was only a few seconds long, but the few minutes AFTER felt like compressed time. We followed procedures (and determined that at least one procedure is…broken…for a specific scenario) and everything was fine.

But I had to admit in the subsequent minutes and hours after that I was mentally overwhelmed and probably not reliable.

Even though I didn’t FEEL it.

We were done for the day in any case.

So while this guy made a couple bad calls, I can completely see how they could stack up and lead to a potentially horrible outcome. It didn’t, and he knows he screwed up. He will atone for being THAT wrong.

But I have a little more sympathy AND empathy for him today than I did yesterday.
 
killbilly said:
In the spirit of “there but for the grace of God go I” I’d like to amend my previous, somewhat holier-than-thou post.

Stress does funny things to the mind.

Had a very tense situation yesterday that was only a few seconds long, but the few minutes AFTER felt like compressed time. We followed procedures (and determined that at least one procedure is…broken…for a specific scenario) and everything was fine.

But I had to admit in the subsequent minutes and hours after that I was mentally overwhelmed and probably not reliable.

Even though I didn’t FEEL it.

We were done for the day in any case.

So while this guy made a couple bad calls, I can completely see how they could stack up and lead to a potentially horrible outcome. It didn’t, and he knows he screwed up. He will atone for being THAT wrong.

But I have a little more sympathy AND empathy for him today than I did yesterday.
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Everyone is capable of temporary incapacity of some sort, be it of the poop-for-brains/that-was-the-dumbest-thing-I've-ever-seen-in-an-airplane kind, things that one goofs up because they're tired, or things that are the result of long-term, un-addressed stresses, or indeed the result of an actual mental illness. Yes, yes, we're not supposed to go to pieces under pressure, and I would submit that most of us are unlikely to, but life's bigger than just moving the airplane around too.

That's why there's two (or more) of us. And it's why you should always be really careful about going flying after something off-nominal.

DE727UPS said:
Be sure to talk to the union safety folks about the "broken procedure". I had something happen when I was a new Capt that was sort of a gray area in the books. Ended up being a slide in the next years recurrent ground school.
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ASAP the poop out of that (and hope that you actually do have a learning culture that will do something about it, however minimal in nature—not universal).
 
DE727UPS said:
Be sure to talk to the union safety folks about the "broken procedure". I had something happen when I was a new Capt that was sort of a gray area in the books. Ended up being a slide in the next years recurrent ground school.
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Absolutely! Had a similar situation, that ended up being the first of 10+ of that issue…ended up being the next year CQ scenario.

Kinda fun to point in the manual and say “I did that”
 
fair point all around.

The “broken” part isn’t safety-related, merely a corner-case scenario where the procedure doesn’t follow a logical conclusion because of how it’s implemented.

And yea ASAPs have been filed.
DE727UPS said:
Be sure to talk to the union safety folks about the "broken procedure". I had something happen when I was a new Capt that was sort of a gray area in the books. Ended up being a slide in the next years recurrent ground school.
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killbilly said:
Had a very tense situation yesterday that was only a few seconds long, but the few minutes AFTER felt like compressed time. We followed procedures (and determined that at least one procedure is…broken…for a specific scenario) and everything was fine.

But I had to admit in the subsequent minutes and hours after that I was mentally overwhelmed and probably not reliable.

Even though I didn’t FEEL it.
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Sometimes you just gotta laugh at the insanity of a situation. 20 years ago, I’m getting set up for a bomb pass on a ground combat situation going on below in southern Iraq. Dust and sand all around in the air. Am in a turn trying to match what I’m seeing on the ground with what’s plotted on my map of friendly and enemy locations, prior to rolling into a dive pass. I notice gunfire tracers low and in my peripheral vision, two corkscrew smoke trails and the MANPAD rocket exhaust go right past my canopy a few feet away, along with a bunch of tracers now tracking. My wingman, in trail, keys up and says “hey lead, you’re being shot at”. Oh you think? Thanks for telling me chit I already know now. An earlier heads up would’ve been nice! Just had to chuckle at that moment in time, since I was pretty much a duck in a shooting gallery to those down below……picturing myself as the duck in that carnival game that moves along from side to side as the person with the air rifle tries to knock it over and win the prize. I’m actually that! Since there isn’t really jack i can do about it right now besides keep the jet moving and hope they don’t learn proper lead-aiming, or start shooting higher quality SAMs at us. Just had to let out a laugh of insanity, because that was the description of the entire situation. Didn’t reach the stage of pulling both my fire T-handles though. 😂
 
MikeD said:
Sometimes you just gotta laugh at the insanity of a situation. 20 years ago, I’m getting set up for a bomb pass on a ground combat situation going on below in southern Iraq. Dust and sand all around in the air. Am in a turn trying to match what I’m seeing on the ground with what’s plotted on my map of friendly and enemy locations, prior to rolling into a dive pass. I notice gunfire tracers low and in my peripheral vision, two corkscrew smoke trails and the MANPAD rocket exhaust go right past my canopy a few feet away, along with a bunch of tracers now tracking. My wingman, in trail, keys up and says “hey lead, you’re being shot at”. Oh you think? Thanks for telling me chit I already know now. An earlier heads up would’ve been nice! Just had to chuckle at that moment in time, since I was pretty much a duck in a shooting gallery to those down below……picturing myself as the duck in that carnival game that moves along from side to side as the person with the air rifle tries to knock it over and win the prize. I’m actually that! Since there isn’t really jack i can do about it right now besides keep the jet moving and hope they don’t learn proper lead-aiming, or start shooting higher quality SAMs at us. Just had to let out a laugh of insanity, because that was the description of the entire situation. Didn’t reach the stage of pulling both my fire T-handles though. 😂
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I'm willing to bet you dropped the bombs where they were needed. People think heroes aren't aware of the danger, the truth is they are probably more aware and rather than getting freaked out they compartmentalize it and get busy. If any of you don't know what @MikeD has done I'd suggest a deep dive into his posts. Just saying...
 
knot4u said:
True. Most people don't know an airline pilot, but I'd guess most have friends and family members taking psychotropic drugs. The "doctors" prescribing this crap rather than trying to figure out what's wrong are just lazy. "You're depressed? Here's a pill, I'll see you next year.". The problem is when the pills take effect and scramble the wiring the patient feels great and decides they don't need that crutch and quit taking them and things get weird. I've been effected by this personally and I hope you're not asking for these prescription drugs to be legalized for pilots. How about we figure out what's wrong before we put a band-aid on it?
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Pilot Fighter said:
It’s unfortunate that reports of the Germanwings 9525 failed to differentiate between mild/clinical depression and psychotic depression.

The former has strong links to suicide and almost no link to homicide. The later includes hallucinatory or schizophrenic behavior with strong links to homicidal behavior. The fact that both share the word depression will continue to plague pilots with depression.

Also, the FAA has created an insane criteria for depression history or depression. Suicidal ideation or suicide attempts are deal breakers. Okay, I can accept the latter. The former is a nutty criteria that ignores the nature of depression. Most suicidal folks with depression want to stop being a burden to friends and family, not just end their own suffering. Among these folks, suicide is not a selfish act, they usually are quite empathetic to how others are suffering from proximity to depression.

Heck, there’s a good number of us that have had suicidal ideation in our lifetimes despite good mental health. Let’s not talk about that.
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So, to first understand some things we have to understand that there is a stark difference between being depressed and depression. They're not the same. Like at all. Feeling depressed is feeling that can come and go depending on various reasons. "My gf/wife dumped me/divorced me. Or I got a "D" on a test that I studied really hard for. I'm depressed i.e. I'm feeling (momentary) sad(dness). Depression is clinical i.e. clinical depression. That's a psychological issue dealing with neurotransmitters either producing either low or high levels of dopamine or serotonin. There is no cure for clinical depression, there's only treatment. That treatment is via SSRI's aka pills. I see major transformations on almost a weekly basis here at work. From when they come in a hot dysfunctional mess to sometimes 7-14 days later and they're looking and feeling better, normal.

In my line of work in level 1 acute psych in-patient involuntary treatment we don't do counseling. That's more for outpatient treatment, but CBT/DBT with a therapist/psychologist to learn valuable coping skills is encouraged along with working with a psychiatrist for a patient's prescribed regimen of medication treatment. CBT/DBT alone cannot treat a biochemical disorder the likes of bipolar, anxiety, depression and schizophrenia. Medications must be administered to reset the brain back to its factory settings. CBT/DBT gives them life skills to learn how to best cope, recognize and better handle the mental health situations that they may be experiencing.

Lastly @Pilot Fighter

Let's also not conflate suicidal ideation with homicidal ideations. As you yourself said it best.

Most suicidal folks with depression want to stop being a burden to friends and family, not just end their own suffering. Among these folks, suicide is not a selfish act, they usually are quite empathetic to how others are suffering from proximity to depression.

These are the types that when they reach their end, they're giving away their stuff. Making post online. Or calling texting others letting know they love them, miss them. And that they're sorry for what they're about to do. Then they find a place, a quiet place of solace like @knot4u brother did and end their life alone. Without an audience, or fanfare. Then you hear the usual. Did you hear about Jim? No. He killed himself yesterday. OMG, I just talked to him/saw him yesterday. He looked fine, he was smiling and looked happy.

They absolutely DO NOT get in a plane with 150-180 people and purposely crash it. That is a selfish act. Germanwings was premeditative murder. That was a mass killing, that was an act of cold and callous indifference. That was murder. He waited to act either purposely or saw an opportunity to act and locked the cockpit door. He knew what he was doing. That was an act of a psychopath/sociopath, who might have also had a comorbidity of depression (which isn't unheard of) along with his personality disorder diagnosis or undiagnosised disorder.

But that was not just a suicide, IMO. It was murder and we absolutely shouldn't confuse the two.
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
So, to first understand some things we have to understand that there is a stark difference between being depressed and depression. They're not the same. Like at all. Feeling depressed is feeling that can come and go depending on various reasons. "My gf/wife dumped me/divorced me. Or I got a "D" on a test that I studied really hard for. I'm depressed i.e. I'm feeling (momentary) sad(dness). Depression is clinical i.e. clinical depression. That's a psychological issue dealing with neurotransmitters either producing either low or high levels of dopamine or serotonin. There is no cure for clinical depression, there's only treatment. That treatment is via SSRI's aka pills. I see major transformations on almost a weekly basis here at work. From when they come in a hot dysfunctional mess to sometimes 7-14 days later and they're looking and feeling better, normal.

In my line of work in level 1 acute psych in-patient involuntary treatment we don't do counseling. That's more for outpatient treatment, but CBT/DBT with a therapist/psychologist to learn valuable coping skills is encouraged along with working with a psychiatrist for a patient's prescribed regimen of medication treatment. CBT/DBT alone cannot treat a biochemical disorder the likes of bipolar, anxiety, depression and schizophrenia. Medications must be administered to reset the brain back to its factory settings. CBT/DBT gives them life skills to learn how to best cope, recognize and better handle the mental health situations that they may be experiencing.

Lastly @Pilot Fighter

Let's also not conflate suicidal ideation with homicidal ideations. As you yourself said it best.

Most suicidal folks with depression want to stop being a burden to friends and family, not just end their own suffering. Among these folks, suicide is not a selfish act, they usually are quite empathetic to how others are suffering from proximity to depression.

These are the types that when they reach their end, they're giving away their stuff. Making post online. Or calling texting others letting know they love them, miss them. And that they're sorry for what they're about to do. Then they find a place, a quiet place of solace like @knot4u brother did and end their life alone. Without an audience, or fanfare. Then you hear the usual. Did you hear about Jim? No. He killed himself yesterday. OMG, I just talked to him/saw him yesterday. He looked fine, he was smiling and looked happy.

They absolutely DO NOT get in a plane with 150-180 people and purposely crash it. That is a selfish act. Germanwings was premeditative murder. That was a mass killing, that was an act of cold and callous indifference. That was murder. He waited to act either purposely or saw an opportunity to act and locked the cockpit door. He knew what he was doing. That was an act of a psychopath/sociopath, who might have also had a comorbidity of depression (which isn't unheard of) along with his personality disorder diagnosis or undiagnosised disorder.

But that was not just a suicide, IMO. It was murder and we absolutely shouldn't confuse the two.
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If you want to condone the use of psychotropic drugs rather than trying to figure out what's wrong I'd suggest the next time you have a toothache you take some aspirin rather than actually seeing a dentist. It's just treating the symptom and not getting to the root of the problem. But I suggest you do whatever you like.
 
Do we think that any amount of self righteous lecture moves the needle at all on a person in that bad of a state? It really doesn't.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
It’s unfortunate that reports of the Germanwings 9525 failed to differentiate between mild/clinical depression and psychotic depression.

The former has strong links to suicide and almost no link to homicide. The later includes hallucinatory or schizophrenic behavior with strong links to homicidal behavior. The fact that both share the word depression will continue to plague pilots with depression.

Also, the FAA has created an insane criteria for depression history or depression. Suicidal ideation or suicide attempts are deal breakers. Okay, I can accept the latter. The former is a nutty criteria that ignores the nature of depression. Most suicidal folks with depression want to stop being a burden to friends and family, not just end their own suffering. Among these folks, suicide is not a selfish act, they usually are quite empathetic to how others are suffering from proximity to depression.

Heck, there’s a good number of us that have had suicidal ideation in our lifetimes despite good mental health. Let’s not talk about that.
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It's unfortunate that here in the good ol' USA we don't even seem to recognize mental illness... Well, that's not exactly quite right. Here in the good ol' USA, mental illness is a bit like the weather. Lots and lots of folks see it and TALK about it, but almost nobody ever seems to actually DO anything about it.

Try getting mental health paid paid for by insurance. It's kinda like how teeth and dentists somehow got separated from health care in general, as if teeth aren't really a real part of the human body and therefore, are not really a part of healthcare or the healthcare-industrial complex.

And ultimately, mental disease is the MOST insidious of all disease. When you break your arm, your brain tells you, and you know you need to go get your arm fixed. When you break your brain, who tells your brain it's broken? Our "normative" society?? ...God help us.

Still, killing the sick is always a good idea. Keeps things simple. Black and white.
 
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scooter2525 said:
“I'm sorry for looking at the toolbox, I'm just wondering why a box full of potential to fix things is replaced by a pen that says nothing is broken.“- MCweb
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Did you bring your car to the dealer for warranty work? If you can't speak for yourself then don't.
 
DE727UPS said:
Be sure to talk to the union safety folks about the "broken procedure". I had something happen when I was a new Capt that was sort of a gray area in the books. Ended up being a slide in the next years recurrent ground school.
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THAT kind of thing is one of the huge benefits of working on the 121 (Union) side of the house. You guys, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, have a roof over your head - and a bunch of retained lawyers to ensure legal due process. The rest of the industry just has to stand out in the rain. The more ambitious might actually run around alone in the rain searching for a raincoat while ranting about how da gubmin't is out to get us.
 
form810 said:
THAT kind of thing is one of the huge benefits of working on the 121 (Union) side of the house. You guys, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, have a roof over your head - and a bunch of retained lawyers to ensure legal due process. The rest of the industry just has to stand out in the rain. The more ambitious might actually run around alone in the rain searching for a raincoat while ranting about how da gubmin't is out to get us.
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You forgot to mention they're naked when searching for the raincoat.
 
form810 said:
THAT kind of thing is one of the huge benefits of working on the 121 (Union) side of the house. You guys, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, have a roof over your head - and a bunch of retained lawyers to ensure legal due process
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Airlines are hiring! Come on over, plenty of room for everyone. Just keep the ranting to a minimum during the interview and you’ll be able to grab your bag of money on the way out.
 
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