Qutch Color Vision Test Solution

[Data]

Taken from the "Color Vision - Optec 900 / FALANT" thread.

This is a very different approach to the problem. If I'm right, there is nothing wrong with your color vision. . The underlying explanation and solution is not well known, either to Aviation Medical Examiners, or to Ophthalmologists. . You'll need to explain to the "experts" who test you what they are doing wrong.

I am not a physician. My specialty was Aviation Psychology/Human Factors Engineering, working on advanced perception studies as they applied to interpretation of cockpit instrumentation. . My work involved the study of how the pilot perceives visual information and processes it in the brain. . Although the goal of our studies was aimed at proving that human brains could outperform any future FMS computing potential (like flying complex aerobatic fighter maneuvers off instruments alone) , I worked enough with color perception to solve this problem. . . If you want to try this route, and want more information, PM me and I'll try to help you. . Based upon my experience -

A) If you did not know you had a color vision problem prior to aviation testing, and you still don't have a real-world problem outside of testing, then you may not have an aviation color vision problem, even if everyone is telling you that you do.

B) In a very high percentage of cases, the testing problems are caused by 2 factors 1) physiological stress (fear of the test) which can interfere with visual perception 2) improperly conducted testing by testing personnel due to inadequate training and/or improper equipment. In many cases, a properly trained ophthalmologist (using a properly administered color test) can "psych" the candidate back into normal processing of color perception and eliminate the problem.


Controlled Lighting - As you'll read in the literature below, certain types of tests should be conducted under special controlled lighting (but they often are not). . Whenever an open card based test was administered, I insisted that a MacBeth Blue Light be used, set up at a designated angle, prior to allowing any testing. . The testers don't always have the training and expertise that pilots assume they have, so you might have to show them how to do their job. .

Documentation - The information I'm giving you is not unknown in the literature, or to the FAA. . But it was, and still is, poorly disseminated information which results in the unnecessary loss of qualified pilot candidates. . Below is some information documenting some of what I've said here. . I'm not going to include the most technical material here. . If you are interested in following this up, PM me and I'll get you more. .

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1506614 National Institutes ofHealth.gov site

http://www.revoptom.com/content/c/29363/
"Stress is a physical, mental or emotional reaction caused by a change that disturbs or interferes with the body's normal equilibrium. The ocular impact of stress may range from mild discomfort to severe, debilitating vision loss."

I've been reading JC for years but I never felt compelled to register or post until now. What I saw on the thread "Color Vision - Optec 900 / FALANT" was shocking. I joined JC to ask about the Qutch post, #11.

This color vision testing mystery has been around for years. I've sweated it, and other pilots I know have lost sleep over it. Careers have been ruined over it. JC has dozens of threads devoted to the subject, as do other forums of people like me looking for a way around the test. Never prior to this thread have I seen any explanation, or received an explanation from an eye doctor that made any credible attempt to explain why pilots who have repeatedly passed the test before, and have no problems operating in the real world, suddenly start failing the test. It never made any sense to me, and even though color vision supposedly does not change, the doctors I've asked just seemed to shrug it off as an unanswerable question.

But this post raises as many questions as it answers. No disrespect to Qutch, but he is a puzzling poster. His posts at JC all pop up with mysterious "information" that nobody has ever seen before. These threads get looked at by thousands of people, including doctors in the Flight Surgeon section. If the claims that Qutch posts, including the posting here are true, how is it that nobody knows anything about Qutch's claims? It doesn't make sense to me. Although he provided what looks like good cv documentation to back up his story, I can't understand why this vision documentation hasn't shown up in the previous 10 years on JC. Where has it been, and why didn't doctors on JC have access to this? If they did have it, why didn't they post it? Qutch says he's not a doctor, but he
shows up with answers that no doctor here or pilot has ever mentioned before. It doesn't make sense. Either Qutch's story and his documents are bugus (and should be exposed as fraudulent), or he's got a new way to approach color vision testing.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1506614 National Institutes of Health.gov site

http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/1990s/media/AM93-16.pdf FAA Library


I don't mean to make anyone defensive, but this color vision issue is an emotional nightmare to many of us. Qutch's claims should either be disputed if he's crazy, or confirmed. I'd like to hear from the AME's on this site and see them battle it out with Qutch. If proper lighting is such an important issue, why haven't we heard of this before? If certain factions at the FAA already know about this, what's behind the decades of license restrictions and aborted careers? Qutch's lighting frequency factor makes a lot of sense, but I've never had an AME use any special light, just whatever room light was available. And although the term "test anxiety" is well known in academics, I've never heard an AME mention stress as a factor. Now that I think about it, what Qutch says makes sense, yet I can find no previous explanation or documentation of this in JC's threads. Why not?

I'd also like to see Qutch post the rest of the story or documentation that he's offering, instead of offering it only by PM. I don't understand why Qutch won't just post it so everyone can evaluate and debate the information. I don't want to run off half-cocked on a crazy theory. On the other hand, if Qutch is correct, his lighting frequency matching/stress elimination method would solve the problem for many of us.

 

[Qutch]

I don't mean to make anyone defensive, but this color vision issue is an emotional nightmare to many of us. Qutch's claims should either be disputed if he's crazy, or confirmed. I'd like to hear from the AME's on this site ......If proper lighting is such an important issue, why haven't we heard of this before? If certain factions at the FAA already know about this, what's behind the decades of license restrictions and aborted careers? ........I can find no previous explanation or documentation of this in JC's threads. Why not?

I'd also like to see Qutch post the rest of the story or documentation that he's offering, instead of offering it only by PM. I don't understand why Qutch won't just post it so everyone can evaluate and debate the information. I don't want to run off half-cocked on a crazy theory. On the other hand, if Qutch is correct, his lighting frequency matching/stress elimination method would solve the problem for many of us.

I don't mind posting more information, or having my claims debated by thoughtful people who do their research. . I don't post very often. . When I do, the info I post is generally outside conventional thinking and it sometimes draws criticism from casual readers or people locked into an established way of thinking. . I elected not to post all of this publicly to avoid getting an argument started, and because this forum section belongs to the Flight Surgeons. . However, if they don't object, I'll post it. .

The few times I've posted, it is generally to publish recently declassified information or information that isn't widely advertised. . . I don't bother to post commonly distributed information. . Color Vision is one of many misunderstood subjects, plagued by misconceptions, which unfairly and adversely effects many pilots and aspiring pilots who mistakenly drop out of the system. . The FAA has not fixed the system. . AME's typically don't question or challenge the system. . I think the system should be challenged, and AME's should teach pilots how, within legal and ethical limits, to maneuver their way around a broken and confusing system. .


http://flightsafety.org/asw/dec08/asw_dec08_p38-41.pdf . December 2008 Aviation Medicine Magazine as published by FlightSafety.org - "There is little [color vision testing] uniformity established by aviation authorities in different countries. Every regulatory agency in the world has its own set of standards, its own exams" - (Dr. Russell Rayman, Executive Director of the Aerospace Medical Association)


I learned much of what I know about this subject from an ophthalmologist, the late Dr. Robert Lohr. . http://www.pacificu.edu/news/detail.cfm?news_id=9711 Dr. Lohr was a persistent problem solver and a perfectionist. . He conducted all color vision testing in a darkened room under an expensive MacBeth lamp. . In the case of pilots who had inexplicably started having color vision testing problems, I watched him turn back on ("psyche") their brain's ability to begin processing colors correctly. . Unfortunately, not all of the people who perform these tests have the same emotional and financial investment in the testing outcomes as the pilots do. . In addition, proper equipment and training costs these clinics money. . Some of the people/clinics who give these tests don't have sufficient financial incentives to administer the tests in a manner that gives the pilot the best shot at passing. . And among those professionals who do try their best, the information available to them is often contradictory, confusing and misguided. . Therefore, unfortunately the only option available to many students and pilots is to protect themselves by learning more about the science of color vision testing than the people who sell their testing services to pilots. . Then do what you can to prepare for the test (yes, you can prepare for this test), and choose optimal testing conditions to the degree possible, just as you might do with any test or check ride to give yourself an edge. .


I am not a physician. . My background is as an Air Force flight instructor and in Aviation Psychology Research. . If the Flight Surgeon(s) manning this thread have no objections to my posting the info, I will post most of it. . Or they might prefer that I submit the data to them first for editing and they can then choose what to release. . I'm not looking to intrude on AME territory or start a fight here. . In the mean time, I'll help anyone who wants help through JC PM or private email. . If you're one of the thousands of people who've passed CV tests before, have no known real-world color vision problems, but who for some inexplicable reason have suddenly started having testing troubles that your AME or regular eye doctor cannot explain, there is a fair chance that you are not the problem. . The clinician and their test is the likely problem.


Qutch

 

[Data]

Color Vision is one of many misunderstood subjects, plagued by misconceptions, which unfairly and adversely effects many pilots and aspiring pilots who are forced out of the system. . The FAA has not fixed the system. . AME's typically don't question or challenge the system. . I think the system should be challenged.

If you're one of the thousands of people who've passed CV tests before, have no known real-world color vision problems, but who for some inexplicable reason have suddenly started having testing troubles that your AME or regular eye doctor cannot explain, there is a fair chance that you are not the problem. . The clinician and their test is the likely problem.

That's what I don't get. You are challenging the doctors to provide an explanation for color vision loss. Whenever I've asked why I started failing after passing before, they say there is no answer, its genetic. End of story. In looking through the JC threads, that's pretty much the consensus here too. Doctors and JC members. "It's Genetic." How do I beat that?


Speaking of challenging the experts, I've read your claims on psychological connections to general vision. As far as I can find, none of the JC AME postings mention psychological factors influencing color vision. I can't find anything specifically confirming that on-line either. And you seem to be suggesting that pilot/patients can prepare for or influence the test if they understand the lighting requirements and the psychology involved (the Lohr technique?). But in previous posts the flight surgeon, in response to questions regarding pilot testing practice or preparations, denies that option to posters who ask that question.

Just go in rested. No other trick I know of, sorry.

The Flight Surgeon hasn't confirmed anything you've said about that, either here or in previous threads. You say you are not a doctor, but some type of researcher. So I'm just going to ask. Exactly how do you know all of this if you are not a doctor? And what is there to back up your claim that color vision problems can be psychologically triggered, or that pilots can prepare and give themselves a testing edge?

 

[SteveC]

[modhat]
I'll leave this thread here for now just in case Dr. Forred has some input. After that I am planning to move it to General Topics for further discussion, and to avoid confusing the purpose of this particular forum. Carry on. [/modhat]

 

[Qutch]

Gee Steve. . I wish you wouldn't do that. . There must be 2 dozen abandoned and unresolved threads in JC on this topic. . I'm finally going to explain to these guys why they've suddenly started failing their color vision tests, why their doctors can't help them, and why so few people know about this. . I'm also going to try to help them pass those tests.

It will be hard for me to help anybody in the General Section because of all the trolling and thread vandals that come out for those things. . They post music videos and rebuttals without even bothering to read the material they are rebutting.
.
I have a suggestion. . Why not give me a chance to medically back up and document the answers to their questions before you take it down or out of the medical section, which is where people look for help with this problem. . Then, after you and the doctor(s) have had a chance to evaluate it, if you think I failed to make my medical argument stick, then do what you want with it. . But if you're waiting for a doctor to join the discussion who knows this material, it could be a while. . Very few do. . I'm going to have to explain it first.

So do you and the Flight Surgeon want to give me a chance to explain this first or not? The PMs and private emails I'm getting say people want to hear this if I can back it up. .

I can back it up.

Qutch

 

[Bumblebee]

[modhat]We are waiting for the Flight Surgeon Dr. Forred. This is his forum. No more debate. If you have your evidence feel free to make your case, but no more talk about other subjects (such as how the rest of the forums are unfair) in here[/modhat]

 

[Data]

[modhat]
I'll leave this thread here for now just in case Dr. Forred has some input. After that I am planning to move it to General Topics for further discussion, and to avoid confusing the purpose of this particular forum. Carry on. [/modhat]

I'm confused again. I've been reading JC for years and I've never seen this happen before. I don't understand how I set off all the fireworks by starting this thread in the Flight Surgeon section. Please explain so I don't do it wrong again.

There are dozens of unresolved threads on this color vision subject in the Flight Surgeon section. So I thought this was the right place for the color vision threads. I posed my question to the Flight Surgeon, but he/they have not answered yet. Qutch offered to hold back and let the Flight Surgeon moderate or even pre-approve his material, but he/they did not object, and they have not weighed in with their own opinion I guess. The other color vision threads are full of debate and wild speculation by regular pilots. Nobody got upset with them. So I don't understand what I did that's confusing the purpose of this forum. But I don't want to do it again. Please explain so I don't inadvertently do it again.

This color vision problem is really important to some of us. And there aren't many plausible answers out there for us. I was really hoping this thread might be the one we've been waiting for. So please tell me what has everybody so upset so we can continue. I know you said its confusing the purpose of this medical forum, but I guess I don't understand what we need to do to keep it within bounds. I'm afraid to say anything more about color vision right now.

Help.

 

[RS1]

Hi Data,

You should know that the FAA posts its studies under "libraries" and if you read through this, you can see some of the factors that were confirmed to have affected the results of these tests under certain circumstances. The lighting requirement IS posted on the FAA site, but he's right, 9 times out of 10 the AME doesn't know the standard in and out, and/or knows out of date information. I am a victim of this myself, and now what I do is bring the FAA color vision standards on a printed sheet of paper with me when I go. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...m/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item52/amd/ (I visit this site incessantly to see if they change anything, which they have done in the past, but nothing too negative so far, seems like they are logical and getting more fair about it and now the 1st class standards are the same as 2nd and 3rd, which is a step in the right direction. I never knew this before, and never would have if I didn't read through the library entries.) SO many "assistants" (not even the doctor, because it's routine to most, they give it to them to administer, and they have no knowledge of color vision or how it works whatsoever) want to fail you if you miss 1 (!) ishihara plate. According to the FAA, you can miss almost half of them and still "pass" to their standards. They simply do not know that and alot of people get turned away, discouraged and misguided when they shouldn't. No one tells them the correct next path to take. 9 times out of 10 the AME doesn't even know the best next step, because color vision isn't their only focus, and they have to be a jack of all trades, rather than a master of 1. Finding an AME who is an EYE doctor also is a good bet... But even then, color vision is an after-thought, unless they themselves have a problem, or were interested in the topic. (I hate to say this and it might get me flagged, but it really does seem like turning clients around faster makes the most money, and going the extra mile doesn't make them extra money)

http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/

Yuu can search for "color" in each of the years to see any documents on them. The early 90's had some interesting studies.

There NEEDS to be better guidance out there, and/or a better way to test color vision. (Engineers should design things so color is secondary, but that is a whole other topic) The point is, most AME's will brush you off because only a handful of people have this 'issue', and most everyday people will scold you for thinking that you can safely do ANYTHING because you are color 'blind'. This needs to stop, because it is simply untrue, as was noted in many of the studies. And in Europe, they have a stricter standard, yet American pilots safely fly into their airspace on a daily basis, even though they are held to a lower standard... Things like this is what makes it a touchy subject... And more attention should be brought to it, because it's a mess and does affect peoples lives.

 

[Bumblebee]

This forum is for questions for Dr. Forred. Conjecture and debate is not welcome here in this particular forum. We limit the mount of superfluous material for the doctor (who does this as a free service for JC) to need to peruse in order to give his response.

We ask that the OP has a chance to hear from Dr. Forred before being given opinions from non-medical personnel.

 

[RS1]

I understand. I only ask that the thread be moved to the appropriate section if it goes too far off topic? There is some good information here that really could help a lot of people.

Thanks

This forum is for questions for Dr. Forred. Conjecture and debate is not welcome here in this particular forum. We limit the mount of superfluous material for the doctor (who does this as a free service for JC) to need to peruse in order to give his response.

We ask that the OP has a chance to hear from Dr. Forred before being given opinions from non-medical personnel.

 

[Data]

Posted by Bumblee "This forum is for questions for Dr. Forred. Conjecture and debate is not welcome here in this particular forum. We limit the mount of superfluous material for the doctor (who does this as a free service for JC) to need to peruse in order to give his response."




O.K. Now I'm really confused. I posted in here to stay away from the threads full of superfluous material, like Qutch said. It's more professional in here. Dan64456 and Qutch are posting the type of detailed well researched medical information I can't get out of my doctor, and I rarely see in the General Section which has a lot of joking around in it. So I'm grateful for this forum section, and a chance to get to talk to people who know their subject and are serious. I'd be glad to get the JC Flight Surgeons' opinion too when he's ready, but frankly, I think Dan and Qutch are getting me part way and I too would hate to see this thread thrown to the crowds.

Also, I've carefully read every color vision thread on JC, so I thought I understood the rules from reading them, but maybe not. From what I've read, the pilots start the discussion and they run with it until the doctor/s decide to comment or steer. Sometimes the doctor does very little and just let the pilots have at it. Pilots publish post after post after post after post of superfluous conjecture (I can link some over to you if you want, I keep a library of them). I've never seen a moderator jump in and threaten to pull a color vision thread before for any reason at all. And suddenly there are two of you saying "no more debate" and that we are "confusing the purpose of this particular forum".

I'm trying to be as polite as I can here (I think everybody is) but I'm honestly really confused. Qutch offered to wait for the doctor if the doctor wanted to intervene. I read the JC rules during the break. I can't figure out what rules I'm violating but I know I must be or 2 moderators would not have showed up to stop the discussion. Frankly, I'm sort of embarrassed now. Is there another set of written rules you can direct me to that I should read before continuing?

Thanks.

[modhat]stop posting and wait for the doctor...OK? thank you.[/modhat]