quick app plate question

[taseal]

getting ready for my end of coruse for inst and just had a quick question..

lets look at this:

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/BID/IAP/VOR_DME+RWY+10/pdf

you are cleared for the full app. you are about 15 miles north of the airport. you are at 3,000. when can you start descending to the 1700? when established back inbound after the course reversal? or can you descend to 1700 while you are on your way to the hold to do the course reversal?

 

[SIUav8er]

Unless you are on the 284R, you must stay at the last asigned altitude ATC gives you untill established inbound on the PT.

 

[fish314]

Unless you are on the 284R, you must stay at the last asigned altitude ATC gives you untill established inbound on the PT.

This is not a procedure turn, it's a HILO (holding-in-lieu of a procedure turn). Therefore, unless otherwise instructed by ATC, you are required to stay at 3000 in the above scenario until you cross RHINA to start the holding pattern. You do not have to wait until you are established on the 284R inbound to SEY, unless there are separate altitudes published for the holding pattern and for the FAF. Once you cross the fix, you are in the holding pattern, and can descend down to 1700.

 

[fish314]

There is one case where you need to wait until you are established on the inbound leg of the HILO before you can begin your descent, and that's if there is a descent depicted on the inbound leg of the HILO. A good example of that is the ILS RWY 34 at KARA here:

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/ARA/IAP/ILS+RWY+34/pdf

If you compare that with the approach that TASEAL posted you can see the difference. The for the approach at Acadiana, if you were at 3000 and subsequently told "cleared ILS RWY 34 full procedure" you could descend to 1700 as soon as you cross ACADI and begin the holding in lieu of, but you would have to wait until you were on the 345 course inbound to ACADI before you could continue your descent below 1700 to 1500.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

getting ready for my end of coruse for inst and just had a quick question..

lets look at this:

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/BID/IAP/VOR_DME+RWY+10/pdf

you are cleared for the full app. you are about 15 miles north of the airport. you are at 3,000. when can you start descending to the 1700? when established back inbound after the course reversal? or can you descend to 1700 while you are on your way to the hold to do the course reversal?

Assuming you are going to SEY and not GARRD) fish is exactly right. Assuming you were not give instructions to descend further, you would maintain 3000 to SEY, turn west enter the HIL at RHINA and descend to 1700 in the turn.

 

[bLizZuE]

I would even take two turns in the hold. That's a lot of altitude to lose and be stabilized and set up for the straight in.

 

[turbojet28]

And remember to advise ATC if you need to make some extra laps to lose the altitude.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I would even take two turns in the hold. That's a lot of altitude to lose and be stabilized and set up for the straight in.

It is. I'm a little bit surprised that SEY to RHINA is not set up as a transition/feeder with a drop in altitude.

 

[Schinpop]

I would even take two turns in the hold. That's a lot of altitude to lose and be stabilized and set up for the straight in.

Why? If it's a 1 minute hold, you have the outbound, the inbound and the turn, which adds up to 3 mins. At 500ft/min, you're at 1700 or so at RHINA, and you're in a reasonable aricraft configuration for the final approach segment. Once established inbound, if things didn't look perfect, I'd do the extra lap.

 

[taseal]

cool, thx guys...

so when shooting this app, one good place to loose the alt would be the hold itself.

however, if lets say i was told to do the full app at say 2000 (or 1700) I don't need to do the full hold right? I would just make my parallel entry, and when established back inbound, i would cont with the app. or do I need to make 1 full turn in the app?

 

[norcalpilot25]

No need to do a turn in the hold unless you need to or are instructed to do so. If your cleared for the approach you can make your course reversal and continue.

 

[turbojet28]

AIM section 5-4-9 will be of great help for these types of questions.

 

[Schinpop]

however, if lets say i was told to do the full app at say 2000 (or 1700) I don't need to do the full hold right? I would just make my parallel entry, and when established back inbound, i would cont with the app. or do I need to make 1 full turn in the app?

Just a minor nit. If you must do a parallel entry, you will probably need to make a lap in the hold. In my mind, parallel entry is the worst of the three if you're wanting to do the approach right away. It's just too hard to get established and comfortable on the inbound prior to the FAF. If coming from the VOR, a teardrop entry makes more sense.

 

[cfii2007]

You must maintain the last assigned altitude until cleared for the approach and established on a segment of it. In this case, once you cross RHINA you may do your appropriate entry and begin a decent.

 

[cfii2007]

Just a minor nit. If you must do a parallel entry, you will probably need to make a lap in the hold. In my mind, parallel entry is the worst of the three if you're wanting to do the approach right away. It's just too hard to get established and comfortable on the inbound prior to the FAF. If coming from the VOR, a teardrop entry makes more sense.

I typically tell my students to pick a teardrop if they have a choice, versus a parallel entry for the reasons you pointed out.

Teardrop make it easier to get established on the final approach course, plus you stay on the holding side of the hold.

 

[grnclvrs]

Just go to your alternate. Block Island is always fogged in.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

cool, thx guys...

so when shooting this app, one good place to loose the alt would be the hold itself.

however, if lets say i was told to do the full app at say 2000 (or 1700) I don't need to do the full hold right??

It sounds like you think you need to more than you do. I'm not sure what you mean by "full hold."

Maybe it's easier to think of it in terms of the number of times you cross the holding fix rather than as full or partial or turns in the hold.

For a HILPT, you are only expected to cross the holding fix twice - once when beginning the hold entry and once when crossing the fix as you begin your descent on the FAF. If you need or want more, tell ATC.

 

[taseal]

course reversal would make the most sense to me, I just wanted to make sure a full hold isn't needed.

I guess it would be parallel or teardrop depending on the winds etc. I usually do parallel. I know most people prefer teardrop. maybe I need to change my attitude about parallels.