Question for you guys...

Then you're delusional. People screw up. People have bad days, people make mistakes. You ought not be so judgmental.

Maybe I am. I understand people make mistakes, but I'm just saying that I would personally be grateful for still having a job. If/when I screw up at my current place of employment, I will be grateful if I don't get fired.
 
Yes. If I took a perfectly good airplane and ran it into another, I would be counting my blessings of still having a job. That's just me.

Maybe I haven't been in aviation long enough to realize that it's okay to play bumper cars with airplanes, keep your job, and make the company pay for ones own negligence (or just walk because it's absurd for someone to take responsibility for their actions).

You just need a good union. "Hey! you just damaged my airplane" says the airplane's owner...... you say "Meh, complain to my union" as you walk away.
 
Maybe I am. I understand people make mistakes, but I'm just saying that I would personally be grateful for still having a job. If/when I screw up at my current place of employment, I will be grateful if I don't get fired.

A few questions to think about then...

If you were the boss, would you fire a pilot over this sort of thing? If so, what would you be accomplishing?

Would it get you your money? Would it prevent more occurrences from happening in the future?

Personally, I think the answer to both these questions is "No."

I'm also curious...in your entire career, have you never damaged anything whatsoever? Never flat spotted a tire? Forgot to turn off the master switch and ran a battery down? Bumped into a static wick and snapped it off during a cold winter preflight?

Any wise person who runs a business will understand there is a certain level of "crap happens" in the world and plan accordingly. It doesn't matter how much training is given, or how talented the employees are. It's impossible to run a flawless operation. Sure, some mistakes cost more than others, but that's what insurance is for.

If the plan for covering mistakes is, "Make the employee pay," that's not really a plan at all. It will lead to a toxic work environment where everyone is miserable and tries to hide mistakes. Plus, from a purely pragmatic point of view, it doesn't even make financial sense...most employees *won't* pay, and you'll *still* be left holding the bag. I don't recommend it.
 
If I have a bad day and fat-finger a configuration file, I can cost my company a hundred grand pretty easily in tangible revenue over a fifteen minute window, and far more that over time in loss of reputation (and other less tangible losses).

If I do that, do you think I get:
A> Fired.
B> "Fined" $100k
C> Told to be more careful in the future.

..?

The answer is C.

When a CEO screws up and costs a fortune 10 company billions (with a 'b') of dollars, do you think it's A>, B> or C>?

It's actually D: They get their contracted bonus.

It's absurd to expect someone working a near minimum-wage job to pay for damage that arises over the course of their work. That's what insurance is for. That's a standard cost of doing business. It just is. You can't try to recoup that from your employees.

What was that... contractors you say?

Do you really believe that most CFis who are working as "contractors" are actually contractors under the law? The IRS has been cracking down on this one lately. Do some research, especially if you're an "independent contractor" whose flight school directs you to do pretty much anything during your normal 'work day'.

Anyway, grow a pair, people. You're not "lucky" to keep a job that requires you to pay a thousand dollars for making a mistake in the performance of your job duties.

-Fox
(No offense is intended, but really ... come on.)

PS. I do recommend your friend immediately drop going after the line guy.
 
What a joke. Wait until its hangar rash with corporate jets. It happens, people make mistakes, and they don't get fired because of it. I have seen:

- a door lowered onto a citation wingtip
- an un chocked plane slowly roll into a wall
- a Clarke tug towing a citation whose operator forgot to close the tow latch, ruined radome
- mechanics running up a plane in chocks, jumped chocks, fuselage damage
- an Astra tail dragged across a door not opened high enough
- a lectro driven into a citation leading edge


And nobody got fired. You young guys need to get beyond the idea that you have to pay for your mistakes. It won't be that way in the future
 
I didn't think it was legal for an employer to make an employee pay for expenses such as this, even if it is his fault. If he crashed the airplane, would the flight school come after him for $100K?
 
Sounds underhanded. If I were the school owner I'd dress down the instructor in private, eat the maintenance labor cost, be thankful that I pay a lower rate for parts, and have my guys turn wrenches as quickly as they could in order to get my income-producing bird (for me, my company and instructors) back on the line. And see if there is an opportunity to improve safety practices on the ramp.
 
It can get worse - a friend owns a maintenance shop and a Citation was pushed back into the hangar wall, slightly wrinkling the trailing edge corner of the elevator. They quickly fixed it at no cost to the owner (of course), but the owner tried to shake down my buddy for millions. Why? The aircraft now had "damage history," lowering its resale value, and the aircraft was unavailable to the owner for a few extra days.

They went 'round and 'round arguing the definition of "damage," what had to be disclosed, what had to be entered into the logbooks, etc.
 
It can get worse - a friend owns a maintenance shop and a Citation was pushed back into the hangar wall, slightly wrinkling the trailing edge corner of the elevator. They quickly fixed it at no cost to the owner (of course), but the owner tried to shake down my buddy for millions. Why? The aircraft now had "damage history," lowering its resale value, and the aircraft was unavailable to the owner for a few extra days.

They went 'round and 'round arguing the definition of "damage," what had to be disclosed, what had to be entered into the logbooks, etc.

Diminution of value is a big deal when dealing with damage history. Sounds like your buddy was trying to pull a fast one on the a/c owner.
 
Strictly my opinion, but if you're my employee then your damages are covered by me (unless there is intentional negligence involved). If you're a contractor or a CFI renting my airplane for instruction, then any damages are your responsibility.

So, the nature of our business relationship makes a big difference.
 
If the CFI is the busiest at that school, then he has some leverage. It's simply BS that a flight school would go after a CFI for an accident like this. I'd consider telling them to take a hike and go find another CFI job, but there might be very good reasons why he doesn't want to. Also, if he feels like paying for part of it, I'd try to approach the student who was actually doing the taxiing to pay for part of it. Yeah, I know the CFI is responsible, but perhaps the student would feel partly responsible as well and kick something in. If the school is big enough to have their own MX staff and several CFI's, then it's just stupid to charge your busiest CFI for a fender bender. It's like taking away your bread and butter if he leaves and takes a student or three with him.
 
Yes. If I took a perfectly good airplane and ran it into another, I would be counting my blessings of still having a job. That's just me.

Maybe I haven't been in aviation long enough to realize that it's okay to play bumper cars with airplanes, keep your job, and make the company pay for ones own negligence (or just walk because it's absurd for someone to take responsibility for their actions).

Look up "just culture." In a just culture setting, you don't fire people for mistakes. Mistakes are inevitable. You counsel at risk behavior, and punish reckless behavior.
 
Hey guys... What's the best way to wreck a Cessna? ...With another Cessna!
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1368811875.726190.jpg

The best way to wreck a metro is with a fuel truck!
 
I didn't think it was legal for an employer to make an employee pay for expenses such as this, even if it is his fault. If he crashed the airplane, would the flight school come after him for $100K?

Yes! I'm not working in aviation, but I've had jobs, and at every one it was clear that you could not be held financially responsible for a mistake you make at work. If I were your CFI friend, I would NOT pay under any circumstances, but look up the state employment laws and point out that part of the law to my employer.

Now about some moral or ethical question about employees paying - that is ridiculous. Employee mistakes are a cost of doing business that every company has to take into account. You hire humans, you get human error. That is the whole reason for insurance.
 
A few questions to think about then...

If you were the boss, would you fire a pilot over this sort of thing? If so, what would you be accomplishing?

Would it get you your money? Would it prevent more occurrences from happening in the future?

Personally, I think the answer to both these questions is "No."

I'm also curious...in your entire career, have you never damaged anything whatsoever? Never flat spotted a tire? Forgot to turn off the master switch and ran a battery down? Bumped into a static wick and snapped it off during a cold winter preflight?

Any wise person who runs a business will understand there is a certain level of "crap happens" in the world and plan accordingly. It doesn't matter how much training is given, or how talented the employees are. It's impossible to run a flawless operation. Sure, some mistakes cost more than others, but that's what insurance is for.

If the plan for covering mistakes is, "Make the employee pay," that's not really a plan at all. It will lead to a toxic work environment where everyone is miserable and tries to hide mistakes. Plus, from a purely pragmatic point of view, it doesn't even make financial sense...most employees *won't* pay, and you'll *still* be left holding the bag. I don't recommend it.

To answer your first question, I probably wouldn't fire the person that did this. I understand mistakes happen, that's the cost of doing business, and I'm already paying my mechanics the salary so they're working for me anyways. As long as this was a one time occurrence I probably wouldn't fire the guy. (still has nothing to do with the fact that I would be happy to have a job after screwing something up and if the boss wants to fire, that's his right).

Next, that's a ridiculous question. Of course we've all damaged something at some point (I can't specifically recall something off the top of my head for you to use the "see you didn't get fired didya"). But no, I haven't flat spotted a tire, forgot the master switch, or snapped a wick.

As a matter of fact, if we flat spotted a tire at the flight school where I worked, you bought it (in most circumstances). The flight school I worked at was a great one, had been in operation over 20 years, and 20 plus aircraft. I was an independent contractor and our insurance coverage was in black in white. If it were something minor like this, the owner probably wouldn't charge, but if he did, I would talk to him to try and get it reduced. If he still charged, he's the boss and that's his right.

If I lent you my car and you totaled it, YOU are paying for the damages/deductible. I'm not going to shrug it off to "that's the cost/risk of driving".
 
I didn't think it was legal for an employer to make an employee pay for expenses such as this, even if it is his fault. If he crashed the airplane, would the flight school come after him for $100K?

No. That's what insurance is for. Possibly the deductible though.
 
If I lent you my car and you totaled it, YOU are paying for the damages/deductible. I'm not going to shrug it off to "that's the cost/risk of driving".

Ditto; unless that car was a company car, and the driver was an employee. Damages are inevitable.

If the CFI is eligible to get fired, then he is an employee, and should by default be covered by the company. After the accident is taken care of (at no cost to the employee) the company then should weigh the risk of keeping the employee vs the total worth of said employee (e.g. he has a ton of students and a clean record until now.) I wouldn't want to work for a company that didn't exercise sound judgement in this regard. In this case, I wouldn't pay, but unfortunately that doesn't mean they have to keep you around either. Either way, the CFI should have had a contingency plan for this type of event, it's an inherent risk of being a CFI. I wouldn't have gotten involved with a company that wasn't willing to cover me in the for such a small event in the first place. If it were me, I would resolve the issue, and find a place to work that supports their employees in time of need.

Conversely, if the CFI was quite simply renting the plane from the company, I would compare that to getting a fender bender in a rental car. That's why we get insurance when we rent cars. By default the student couldn't rent something he's not qualified to use on his own, so the CFI is responsible, not the student. Again, damages are inevitable and it's ill-advisable to not plan accordingly, insurance is a must. In this case I would consider the money owed to the company a penalty for not having his bases covered (with insurance) when they were fully loaded. Talking to the owner and trying to get the amount owed lowered would be a good idea here.

There is no possible way it was the line guys fault. The plane may have been moved, but the CFI let his guard down, and hit a stationary object. If the CFI knows the line guy is a risk at times, then the CFI should be exercising extreme caution when around the ramp under that single premise alone. I would compare it to driving a car in a parking lot, you just inherently have to watch out for the people who didn't quite park in their lanes properly, and can't expect all the cars to be in the correct spot ALL the time (because it seems to me, a lot of people are really bad at parking). Again, another reason to get insurance or review the company policy beforehand.

We all choose our battles. I have learned it's best to exercise extreme caution when picking battles, unless your job is on the line; even then, I feel it's important to strive to be the bigger man; it says a lot about one's character. Resolve is priceless, and I don't recommend for your friend to quit/leave without taking care of the dispute, regardless of who is right or wrong.

Pure speculation on my part but I would imagine the accident went like "Go ahead and taxi past that aircraft, I know it looks close but your good, I've done it 100's of times before." Bummer.
 
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