Question for you guys...

chrisreedrules

chrisreedrules

Master Blaster
A buddy of mine that works at a local flight school had a student accidentally brush wingtips with another 172 (2 x 172's involved). Nothing major thankfully, but now the flight school is trying to make him (the instructor) pay for the damages to the tune of almost $1000. Thats basically a month of his pay that he would be forfeiting. Now, I understand he is PIC and is ultimately responsible for the safety of flight, but there is a little twist to this scenario. The company had one of it's line guys mowing the grass around the ramp and apparently the line guy moved the 172 that was ran into about a foot or two up from it's normal position. So on initial glance it looked as if it was basically parked where it should be. The line guy was supposed to put the aircraft back where it belongs immediately after cutting the grass in that area. But he didn't, and the student and the PIC didn't notice how close the two aircraft were and they brushed wingtips. And apparently this particular line guy doesn't exactly have a good track-record. I remember hearing about him running the leading edge of an SR22s wing into a light pole. But he is the owner's son so they let him slide with a lot of crap apparently.

So how should this scenario play out? I sort of feel that in a training environment with heavy equipment accidents are bound to happen. I also looked at the bill and the company is trying to charge him for "labor" and not just the parts. The school does it's own Mx and the mechanics are on salary. It all just seems so underhanded to me. Like they are trying to take full advantage of my friend. So should he refuse to pay and probably lose his job? Or should he try and talk them down? Or should he just walk away?
 
While I do agree that CFIs should have CFI insurance... There are a lot of flight schools that I know of that would never do this. Isn't that why the flight school has insurance as well?
 
Personally I think it is primarily the instructor's responsibility. I would be happy if I didn't lose my job after something like that. Regardless where the other aircraft "should have" been, that does not relieve him of his responsibility.

If it warrants an insurance claim, I'm sure the rental agreement (and that between the CFI and the flight school) states that the CFI/renter is responsible for the deductible. I think mine was $2500 when I was a CFI.

Of course, accidents do happen. That's why we have insurance. Maybe he could talk to the owner to try and get the price knocked down a bit but I'd be happy to just have a job. Just my .02.
 
Happy to have a job? Seriously? How the heck is firing him going to help anyone? Firing a person like this, unless they have a track record of other problems, is even more retarded than trying to make him pay $1000. I know airline pilots who have done worse and haven't lost their jobs.

Back to the topic at hand...I agree, it sounds shady, but there's not much your friend can do. He can either pay the $1000, ask to pay a lesser amount, or tell the company he's quitting and letting all the customers he's been flying with know the reason for his departure. Depending on his circumstances, I'm tempted to recommend Option #3.
 
jrh said:
Happy to have a job? Seriously? How the heck is firing him going to help anyone? Firing a person like this, unless they have a track record of other problems, is even more retarded than trying to make him pay $1000. I know airline pilots who have done worse and haven't lost their jobs.

Back to the topic at hand...I agree, it sounds shady, but there's not much your friend can do. He can either pay the $1000, ask to pay a lesser amount, or tell the company he's quitting and letting all the customers he's been flying with know the reason for his departure. Depending on his circumstances, I'm tempted to recommend Option #3.
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If I couldn't get rid of it all I would be opting for #3 as well, that is ridiculous.
 
ross9238 said:
Can the flight school legally have the CFI pay even if he quit?
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They could take him to small claims court. And now he'd have a judgement on his record that would possibly impact his ability to get a job at a regional as most applications have questions about do you have any outstanding judgements against you.
 
IF that's the case, it would probably be best to try and talk to the owner to see if there is something that could be worked out. In the meantime, try and see if another flight school is hiring around the area. Whatever you do, don't get upset and try not to burn a bridge.
 
chrisreedrules said:
While I do agree that CFIs should have CFI insurance... There are a lot of flight schools that I know of that would never do this. Isn't that why the flight school has insurance as well?
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Most do... But their insurance covers the school, then they'll come after you for the damages. A good number of places are like this because the CFIs are "contractors." Sucks but it is what it is. Seems pretty commonplace from what I've seen.
 
I would say that the school isn't really in the wrong for wanting the instructor to pay the damages. I am very sorry to hear he doesn't have any insurance. It is always wise in aviation to have some form of financial protection. I can see how the slight moving of the parked plane may have not been noticed, but when it comes down to it he was PIC.

Hopefully he can get the owner of the school to work with him a little bit in this situation.


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Cobalt Thorium G said:
They could take him to small claims court. And now he'd have a judgement on his record that would possibly impact his ability to get a job at a regional as most applications have questions about do you have any outstanding judgements against you.
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Talk about a mixed blessing if there ever was one...


Also, to clarify my earlier post, I am not advocating burning bridges unnecessarily. Aviation is a small world and it's always best to avoid pissing people off. But when a flight school takes a hard stance on something along these lines, it might be best to nicely say, "I won't be paying this. Good luck in your future endeavors," as you walk out the door.

Flight schools who want to retain good instructors don't treat employees this way.
 
Like many things, it is a balancing act between how much they need CFIs, how much he needs a job, and how close the FBO is to being underwater financially. The same situation will yield different results depending on questions like that.
 
Is this his fault? Absolutely!!!
Is he responsible for the damages? That's another question all together. This should already be outlined in his employment paperwork. There should be something in writing wherein the school specifies the responsibility for damages (to include deductible, if any). In the absence of this, he needs to decide how badly he wants the job. [I like the leave the job and tell all the customers option]
As for small claims, they would need to prove that, in conjunction with his described job, he was willful and negligent (negligence isn't usually enough) in order to gain favor in court. Negligence on the part of the lineman will have to be included and a counter suit seems viable.
 
Cobalt Thorium G said:
They could take him to small claims court. And now he'd have a judgement on his record that would possibly impact his ability to get a job at a regional as most applications have questions about do you have any outstanding judgements against you.
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Most states have protections against individual employee (or contractor) liability for acts/accidents taken in the scope of of the individual's responsibility while working.
 
Thanks for all the responses guys... I just talked to him. He said he is going to try and talk to the owner next week and see if he can get the amount owed reduced. He said he will pay half and he feels like the line guy should pay half. I told him I didn't know how well that would go over because the lineman is the owner's son... But I guess we'll see what happens. He also told me he is the busiest flight instructor at this particular school and he does feel bad about what happened. He just doesn't agree that he should have to pay for damages. Especially since by leaving he would be taking a pretty penny out of the flight school's pocket.
 
I wouldn't pay anything. The school is just trying to take advantage of him. I've cost my fair share of damage to a couple of employers, and they never even brought up the question of me paying. Hell, I know a guy that ran a citation into a hangar and they spent 100k getting the wing fixed. Guess what? He's still flying the same plane.

Trying to make a CFI pay a thousand bucks for damages is just screwed up, especially in this case.
 
jrh said:
Happy to have a job? Seriously? How the heck is firing him going to help anyone? Firing a person like this, unless they have a track record of other problems, is even more retarded than trying to make him pay $1000. I know airline pilots who have done worse and haven't lost their jobs.
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Yes. If I took a perfectly good airplane and ran it into another, I would be counting my blessings of still having a job. That's just me.

Maybe I haven't been in aviation long enough to realize that it's okay to play bumper cars with airplanes, keep your job, and make the company pay for ones own negligence (or just walk because it's absurd for someone to take responsibility for their actions).
 
IslandFlyer said:
Yes. If I took a perfectly good airplane and ran it into another, I would be counting my blessings of still having a job. That's just me.

Maybe I haven't been in aviation long enough to realize that it's okay to play bumper cars with airplanes, keep your job, and make the company pay for ones own negligence (or just walk because it's absurd for someone to take responsibility for their actions).
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Then you're delusional. People screw up. People have bad days, people make mistakes. You ought not be so judgmental.
 
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