question for you controllers...

[Chief Captain]

I just hate the word "request"... I feel like it "puts the ball in your court". It gives you all the say in whether or not what I want gets approval. Whereas if I tell you I need it, or that I'm doing it... Then you can just tell me "no" if it is not what you want me to do. This is what I've been told by several DPEs and a senior CA at AAL.

Suggest you talk to some other pilots. You're flying IFR. You'd better believe that EVERYTHING is a request. Your altitude, route and departure time are all requests. Those guys are teaching you some hazardous attitudes. By no means am I saying that you should let the controller fly your plane, but you have to understand the difference between IFR and VFR.

On a related note, I hate when people use "request" for no good reason.

big air 123, request

Big air 123, go ahead

Big air 123 request FL340


Unless it's something unusual, just come out and say it instead of being long winded.

 

[Chief Captain]

PS, how is it everybody always knows a "senior CA" somewhere, and what makes this person more credible than a junior FO?

 

[dustoff17]

..............On a side note, its a real pet-peave of mine when I hear pilots "request" things. I don't request, I tell them I need it. I'm PIC and they aren't in the cockpit seeing what I'm seeing. Just my own thoughts though.

Since you brought it up: ONE of my pet peeves is the pinhead pilots that say, "I'd like to request blah blah blah."

So, what's stopping you? Does the CA not want the same thing you want? Are you trying to get the controller to intervene in your stupid argument? If you want to request something, then make the request!
I would love to hear a controller respond with something along the lines of: "I understand, please advise when you're actually requesting something and I'll see what I can do for you." OR "Well I'd like a long vacation that involves a private beach....."

..........
On a related note, I hate when people use "request" for no good reason.

big air 123, request

Big air 123, go ahead

Big air 123 request FL340


Unless it's something unusual, just come out and say it instead of being long winded.

I'll do this as a heads up IF, and only if, the controller is busy. It puts the ball in their court; they know I would like to do something different and they will get back to me if/when they can. Otherwise, when the controller is busy, blurting out a request in a single radio transmission will get you an "Unable" everytime!

 

[PositionAndHold]

Suggest you talk to some other pilots. You're flying IFR. You'd better believe that EVERYTHING is a request. Your altitude, route and departure time are all requests. Those guys are teaching you some hazardous attitudes. By no means am I saying that you should let the controller fly your plane, but you have to understand the difference between IFR and VFR.

On a related note, I hate when people use "request" for no good reason.

big air 123, request

Big air 123, go ahead

Big air 123 request FL340


Unless it's something unusual, just come out and say it instead of being long winded.

That's great and all, except for about 7 out of 10 times I just say what I want, I get, "say again, I was on the land line". So especially if it's been quiet for a while I'll use "request". For every controller that has your pet peeve there's probably one that "hates when they just key the mic and start talking because I miss half the first part".

 

[jtrain609]

I don't want to sound like an egotistical prick here but the ball is always in our court unless you declare an emergency. We are the controllers. We are the ones who are responsible for separation and the sector. If I tell you to climb to an altitude that you can't then I'm not going to have a debate with you as to why you can't -- I'll simply move on to Plan B. The same goes for what you want. Sometimes it isn't available.

Not a chance, home slice. While I'm not going to simply disregard what you guys instruct us to do, I'm not blindly following your instructions either. I had a departure controller get me a little bit closer to the front range in Denver than any of us intended because of traffic.

And then he forgot about us.

I asked him for a climb one last time, and if he hasn't given it to us, we were going to be climbing with a GPWS escape maneuver, or turning away from the mountains.

You guys aren't strapped into the plane, we are, and that means we're the ones with final responsibility for the safe operation of the aircraft.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Oh come on now, feel the LUV!

Disclaimer: Not everyone has to mix/match SWA with other carriers, and therefore shouldn't be dog-piled for making a comment like the one I just made.

I have to work pretty hard to do 250 in level flight...

 

[jtrain609]

Not a chance, home slice. While I'm not going to simply disregard what you guys instruct us to do, I'm not blindly following your instructions either. I had a departure controller get me a little bit closer to the front range in Denver than any of us intended because of traffic.

And then he forgot about us.

I asked him for a climb one last time, and if he hasn't given it to us, we were going to be climbing with a GPWS escape maneuver, or turning away from the mountains.

You guys aren't strapped into the plane, we are, and that means we're the ones with final responsibility for the safe operation of the aircraft.

Went to edit this and I should clarify; we were going to be climbing BEFORE we had to do a GPWS escape maneuver, but we were going to do it whether this controller wanted it or not.

 

[spades9048]

Not a chance, home slice. While I'm not going to simply disregard what you guys instruct us to do, I'm not blindly following your instructions either. I had a departure controller get me a little bit closer to the front range in Denver than any of us intended because of traffic.

And then he forgot about us.

I asked him for a climb one last time, and if he hasn't given it to us, we were going to be climbing with a GPWS escape maneuver, or turning away from the mountains.

You guys aren't strapped into the plane, we are, and that means we're the ones with final responsibility for the safe operation of the aircraft.

I'm not quite sure why you are under the impression that I wouldn't agree with you in this situation. Personally, while you may not declare it, I would say you coming close enough to terrain where you have to execute an escape maneuver counts as an emergency. I never said I think you should follow clearances that will lead you into an accident. What I am saying is that, unless you are in one of those situations, you will do as we say if you want to fly IFR and your request for a different altitude due to light chop is exactly that -- a request.

 

[jtrain609]

I'm not quite sure why you are under the impression that I wouldn't agree with you in this situation. Personally, while you may not declare it, I would say you coming close enough to terrain where you have to execute an escape maneuver counts as an emergency. I never said I think you should follow clearances that will lead you into an accident. What I am saying is that, unless you are in one of those situations, you will do as we say if you want to fly IFR and your request for a different altitude due to light chop is exactly that -- a request.

You ARE aware that all OUR books say that WE'RE the ones in control, right?

 

[spades9048]

You ARE aware that all OUR books say that WE'RE the ones in control, right?

Why are you so combative over something that is so clearly obvious? I guess we should just throw out the term 'pilot deviation' and we should change our names to 'air traffic counselors' and then we can make requests to you even though you're on an IFR flight plan. Are you willing to bet your career by telling the FAA that you're in control and that you can do whatever you want, regardless of the situation because your book says you're in control?

 

[jtrain609]

Why are you so combative over something that is so clearly obvious?

I'm not being combative.

I guess we should just throw out the term 'pilot deviation' and we should change our names to 'air traffic counselors' and then we can make requests to you even though you're on an IFR flight plan. Are you willing to bet your career by telling the FAA that you're in control and that you can do whatever you want, regardless of the situation because your book says you're in control?

No, and I haven't said that. Nor will I contend that. Such an idea is pure idiocy, but so is blindly trusting a controller.
But in the end, I'm right.

14 CFR Part 91.3(a):

"(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft."

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...e63bbedc3044a110852566cf00612076!OpenDocument

If you give me a clearance that will put my aircraft in any kind of danger, or give me a clearance that will violate one of the rules in my book, I will not do it. I'm not going to simply not do it, because obviously we'll tell you that we're unable unless we're in a situation where we're doing all we can to make sure we don't get ourselves killed. And you can yell and scream all you want about how you have the ultimate authority, and how you're the controller, and how about I'll get violated, but I still won't do something that violates the rules that I work under, nor will I do anything that I think will damage my aircraft. In the end, I'm positive that as long as I follow the rules in my book, then I'll be fine when it comes time for The Big Meeting with the FAA.

 

[spades9048]

I'm not being combative.



No, and I haven't said that. Nor will I contend that. Such an idea is pure idiocy, but so is blindly trusting a controller.
But in the end, I'm right.

14 CFR Part 91.3(a):

"(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft."

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...e63bbedc3044a110852566cf00612076!OpenDocument

If you give me a clearance that will put my aircraft in any kind of danger, or give me a clearance that will violate one of the rules in my book, I will not do it. I'm not going to simply not do it, because obviously we'll tell you that we're unable unless we're in a situation where we're doing all we can to make sure we don't get ourselves killed. And you can yell and scream all you want about how you have the ultimate authority, and how you're the controller, and how about I'll get violated, but I still won't do something that violates the rules that I work under, nor will I do anything that I think will damage my aircraft. In the end, I'm positive that as long as I follow the rules in my book, then I'll be fine when it comes time for The Big Meeting with the FAA.

OK, you told me "not a chance, home slice" and quoted me on a five sentence quote. Where did I say you have to follow a clearance that you cannot accept?

To the contrary, my exact quote included:

"If I tell you to climb to an altitude that you can't then I'm not going to have a debate with you as to why you can't -- I'll simply move on to Plan B. The same goes for what you want. Sometimes it isn't available."

So, I ask again, why are you combative?

 

[spades9048]

Look, I think you have misinterpreted a lot of what I have tried to say in this thread. At no point in time, have I ever suggested you have to follow a clearance that will put you in harms way (for example, you running into a mountain). However, it miffs me a little bit about your whole 'trust' issue. THE WHOLE SYSTEM is based on trust. That involves controllers trusting other controllers, pilots trusting other pilots, you trusting us, we trusting you, you trusting the rampers that your bag count is accurate, trusting TSA that they did their job with the bags, that HAZMAT has been properly packaged and identified, etc...

If I tell you to descend to FL320 and you read it back correctly, then I'm not going to sit there and watch you descend the entire time to make sure you level off. I don't care if there is FL310 traffic head on. I'll eventually tell you about it when I need to call traffic but I'm not going to sit there and second guess you as to whether or not you can do your job. If you read it back then I expect you to do it because I trust you to do your job. At the end of the day, whether you want to believe it or not, we both want the same thing -- for you to land safely and go home to your family. We don't need to have pissing matches over the frequency.

 

[N90-EWR]

"I solemnly swear that ... I will preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States ... accept all requests from Southwest Airlines, and deny those of United and American."

I'll put United ahead of Southwest any day, and twice on Sundays. They work with us much better, and don't act like prima donnas.

 

[N90-EWR]

I'm not being combative.



No, and I haven't said that. Nor will I contend that. Such an idea is pure idiocy, but so is blindly trusting a controller.
But in the end, I'm right.

14 CFR Part 91.3(a):

"(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft."

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...e63bbedc3044a110852566cf00612076!OpenDocument

If you give me a clearance that will put my aircraft in any kind of danger, or give me a clearance that will violate one of the rules in my book, I will not do it. I'm not going to simply not do it, because obviously we'll tell you that we're unable unless we're in a situation where we're doing all we can to make sure we don't get ourselves killed. And you can yell and scream all you want about how you have the ultimate authority, and how you're the controller, and how about I'll get violated, but I still won't do something that violates the rules that I work under, nor will I do anything that I think will damage my aircraft. In the end, I'm positive that as long as I follow the rules in my book, then I'll be fine when it comes time for The Big Meeting with the FAA.

You're correct, but.....its not the point that was being argued. You were implying that because you're sitting behind the controls that you are the one in control, and have the ultimate authority on whether to follow a clearance or not. If I issue you a clearance that does not put your aircraft in any kind of danger, and does no violate any FAR, and you choose not to follow it, you better have some pretty damn good explanation to give, or you wont be sitting behind those controls much longer. That's where we're trying to get at. Pilots that don't like to make "requests" because "it puts the ball on our court" are not going to get very far with that attitude.Thankfully those situations rarely ever happen. After all, we're all working for the same cause, which is to get you safely to where you're going to.

 

[jtrain609]

You're correct, but.....its not the point that was being argued. You were implying that because you're sitting behind the controls that you are the one in control, and have the ultimate authority on whether to follow a clearance or not.

That's because I do.

If I issue you a clearance that does not put your aircraft in any kind of danger, and does no violate any FAR, and you choose not to follow it, you better have some pretty damn good explanation to give, or you wont be sitting behind those controls much longer.

Correct, but I still have the ultimate authority as to whether I'll accept and thus follow the clearance or not. If I won't, or can't, I'll let you know and we'll likely find a solution to whatever problem exists pretty quickly.

That's where we're trying to get at. Pilots that don't like to make "requests" because "it puts the ball on our court" are not going to get very far with that attitude.

I agree with you completely, and frankly that opinion is rubbish on the part of my colleagues. I'll make a request, and if you can't grant it, and I still NEED it, then I'll declare an emergency. If I don't NEED it, then I follow the previous clearance and go about my way.

But just because I REQUEST direct to my destination, and you deny it, doesn't mean I'm simply going to do it anyway. If I NEED to go direct for some reason, I'll declare an emergency and inform you of my intentions.

And I should clarify this point, because many controllers aren't pilots. So when we had an electrical failure, and needed to return to the airport we departed from (Oakland, in this case), and we told the controller this and requested a turn and a descent (which we NEEDED because we had also lost the cabin and were thus unpressurized) and he said "Unable" about three times, we finally said, "We are descending to 10,000', we are turning to heading 270, we are declaring an emergency and we have 3 hours of fuel and 4 souls on board" the controller WAS PISSED.

There was no need to be pissed. We had a serious emergency on our hands, he didn't understand that, and we did what we had to do.

So you also have to understand that many of us have had our concepts of what is acceptable formed by your colleagues interactions with us. When we're in a situation where what we do in the next few minutes will decide whether we live or die (and I've been in a small handful of those situations), the concept that we're not in control is laughable at best.

Thankfully those situations rarely ever happen. After all, we're all working for the same cause, which is to get you safely to where you're going to.

Exactly.

I should also say, if you're working in Newark, you guys do some of the absolute best work out there. I've been based in Newark for most of my short airline career, and I've NEVER had a problem getting what I NEEDED when it hit the fan, and you guys have been better than ANY other airport in getting us what we need to do our job. You can't ask for better controllers, in my view.

 

[GolfChuck]

That's because I do.



Correct, but I still have the ultimate authority as to whether I'll accept and thus follow the clearance or not. If I won't, or can't, I'll let you know and we'll likely find a solution to whatever problem exists pretty quickly.



I agree with you completely, and frankly that opinion is rubbish on the part of my colleagues. I'll make a request, and if you can't grant it, and I still NEED it, then I'll declare an emergency. If I don't NEED it, then I follow the previous clearance and go about my way.

But just because I REQUEST direct to my destination, and you deny it, doesn't mean I'm simply going to do it anyway. If I NEED to go direct for some reason, I'll declare an emergency and inform you of my intentions.

And I should clarify this point, because many controllers aren't pilots. So when we had an electrical failure, and needed to return to the airport we departed from (Oakland, in this case), and we told the controller this and requested a turn and a descent (which we NEEDED because we had also lost the cabin and were thus unpressurized) and he said "Unable" about three times, we finally said, "We are descending to 10,000', we are turning to heading 270, we are declaring an emergency and we have 3 hours of fuel and 4 souls on board" the controller WAS PISSED.

There was no need to be pissed. We had a serious emergency on our hands, he didn't understand that, and we did what we had to do.

So you also have to understand that many of us have had our concepts of what is acceptable formed by your colleagues interactions with us. When we're in a situation where what we do in the next few minutes will decide whether we live or die (and I've been in a small handful of those situations), the concept that we're not in control is laughable at best.




Exactly.

I should also say, if you're working in Newark, you guys do some of the absolute best work out there. I've been based in Newark for most of my short airline career, and I've NEVER had a problem getting what I NEEDED when it hit the fan, and you guys have been better than ANY other airport in getting us what we need to do our job. You can't ask for better controllers, in my view.

Just understand, if a controller gives you an unable, there is a reason for it. Yes, you can utilize your pilot's authority and do what you want, but the second you deviate from a clearance, separation is no longer being provided. I work medevac flights every day into TEB and none of them ever get direct. Even in an emergency, our primary duty is the separation of aircraft. Just remember that when you take pilots authority, you are notjust responsible for your own craft, but also any others that your deviation may affect.

All that being said, there are weak controllers and strong ones, just like pilots. Some controllers may approve something that others won't, some may cop an attitude with you and some won't. The best thing is just to do what your told and make your request with the next sector if you are denied.

 

[jtrain609]

Just understand, if a controller gives you an unable, there is a reason for it. Yes, you can utilize your pilot's authority and do what you want, but the second you deviate from a clearance, separation is no longer being provided. I work medevac flights every day into TEB and none of them ever get direct. Even in an emergency, our primary duty is the separation of aircraft. Just remember that when you take pilots authority, you are notjust responsible for your own craft, but also any others that your deviation may affect.

Without a doubt. And again, I'm not saying that it's acceptable to disregard clearances for the fun of it. Quite the opposite, in fact. There are very few things that will force me to disregard what a controller is saying. But here, let me give you another example of times when I am required to not do what you guys say.

At the last company I worked for, our rules were that when we hit minimum fuel (30 minutes remaining in the tanks), we were to declare an emergency, head straight for the marker and shoot the approach, no matter what ATC said or did. At that point, we were out of options and we were going to get on pavement one way or another.

All that being said, there are weak controllers and strong ones, just like pilots. Some controllers may approve something that others won't, some may cop an attitude with you and some won't. The best thing is just to do what your told and make your request with the next sector if you are denied.

Again, I'm talking about the differences between emergencies and requests. I don't make requests during emergencies. This is why pilots are in control of the aircraft and not controllers.

You also have to understand that in our own ranks, we've had people crash airplanes because pilots didn't push back against controllers when things were going pear shaped. That's why the regulations say that, in the end, we are authorized to do whatever it takes to safely conclude the flight. The "do what you're told" attitude has killed people in the past, and as pilots, we're required, from a regulatory standpoint, to disregard what we're told in certain situations by controllers if it puts our aircraft in jeopardy.

Oh and BTW, that also means weather; I'm not punching through a level 5 return because there's traffic out there. You don't fly out the other end of those things.

 

[TripSix]

I'm not being combative.



No, and I haven't said that. Nor will I contend that. Such an idea is pure idiocy, but so is blindly trusting a controller.
But in the end, I'm right.

14 CFR Part 91.3(a):

"(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft."

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...e63bbedc3044a110852566cf00612076!OpenDocument

If you give me a clearance that will put my aircraft in any kind of danger, or give me a clearance that will violate one of the rules in my book, I will not do it. I'm not going to simply not do it, because obviously we'll tell you that we're unable unless we're in a situation where we're doing all we can to make sure we don't get ourselves killed. And you can yell and scream all you want about how you have the ultimate authority, and how you're the controller, and how about I'll get violated, but I still won't do something that violates the rules that I work under, nor will I do anything that I think will damage my aircraft. In the end, I'm positive that as long as I follow the rules in my book, then I'll be fine when it comes time for The Big Meeting with the FAA.

I don't really think he was referring to clearances that would either put you in danger or violate an FAR.

I believe he was referring to not complying with a clearance because it's not what you requested, or not what you wanted.

Two examples:

Guy sitting next to me gives an IFR aircraft a climb from 2K to 4K, and switches him to my frequency.

Guy doesn't climb. Doesn't climb. Not on my frequency, not on the previous controllers frequency.

The tower of the airport he's flying right into the departure corridor of calls my landline as I'm yelling down to the departure controllers to not whiff this guy, while at the same time the guy sitting next to me is calling the tower to tell them to stop departures.

This all happens while the aircraft travels less than 1.5 miles. Guy checks in, "level at 2"

Me: "Did the last controller give you a climb to 4?"
Him: "Yeah, he did...but we're just going to stay at 2 since we're landing XXX."

Second example:

Pilot checks in. I tell him to fly heading XXX, descend and maintain, XXX. Reads it back.

Other stuff happens. I scan, Notice the aircraft had turned. A lot.

As I am issuing an "immediate turn," I'm displaying the guy to the departure controllers (an implied, don't whiff this guy), then immediately call the tower to stop any departure they have rolling at XXX (below him).

As this is happening, I notice the guy not only hasn't turned, but has CONTINUED the turn even farther in the other direction.

Me: "Verify you're heading XXX?"
Him: "Uh no...we're uh, turning towards the airport-we have it in sight."

These two things happened within about 15 minutes of each other, the last hour of the last day I worked.

Both were IFR, both were operating within Bravo airspace, neither had equipment/aircraft issues.

This kind of stuff happens ALL day, EVERY day.

As a pilot, you may not hear it happen a lot. But as controllers, who work in large facilities (with multiple combined frequencies) we get this day in and day out.

I believe THIS is the kind of stuff he was referring to, not the "fly heading..." right into a mountain stuff.

 

[jtrain609]

That stuff is crap, and unacceptable. I hope I've made that clear, and if I haven't, I'm sorry about that, but we can't simply go disregarding instructions just because we feel like it. Frankly, I can't imagine any of my coworkers disregarding instructions without saying anything about it, just because they feel like doing something else, or without having some type of miscommunication.