question for you controllers...

chrisreedrules

chrisreedrules

Master Blaster
I was doing an instrument training flight around the Jacksonville, FL area today. We shot approaches in to FHB, JAX, VQQ, and CRG. I told ATC that I needed a hold at JUZSO before we shot the RNAV 27L at VQQ. The controller didn't give me an EFC time initially when he cleared me direct JUZSO and hold as published and so I thought, "No big deal, we are 10 miles from the fix and they will often come back in a few minutes and give me my EFC". Well, we were getting close to JUZSO (within a mile) and I queried ATC and told them I needed my EFC time. The controller came back to me, in a rather snide tone, and said "Negative, I am waiting for you to tell me that you are ready to shoot the approach". So I said, "Well you cleared me to hold without an EFC... Thats why I'm asking". "He came back with a, "Disregard the hold, clear for the approach". No biggie... We were already on the outbound turn and the student got the entry right, so thats all I was really concerned with. But why would the controller cop an attitude with me when I'm just trying to keep things safe and legal. I've lost comms before, it isn't fun and I don't want that stress. Even if it is VFR. Any thoughts on this? Was it just a little mistake or was there probably a reason he didn't want me to hold?
 
Well, if you are the one who is requesting to hold then I think you should be the one to also inform the controller how long you want to hold for. Otherwise, what kind of EFC do you think the controller is going to be able to give you? Anything he/she said would clearly be some made up (& worthless) EFC time.
 
That may be so, but I've never told the controllers an EFC time before and this has never come up around this area before. Not in my 2+ years of instrument flying around here. Usually the controllers issue an EFC with the clearance (or shortly thereafter). But I like that idea of me telling them the EFC time I'd like. Keeps the ball more in my court. And I'm always a fan of that when it comes to dealing with ATC. On a side note, its a real pet-peave of mine when I hear pilots "request" things. I don't request, I tell them I need it. I'm PIC and they aren't in the cockpit seeing what I'm seeing. Just my own thoughts though.
 
Well, I can't recall specific situations right now but usually when a pilot requests to hold, the pilot will tell me how long they need to hold for. When I initiate holding, it's because you need to hold and then I will provide you an EFC so you can make the determination on fuel. I'm just saying that if you're telling me you want to hold then what kind of EFC could I possibly give you that isn't some EFC that I randomly pulled out of my butt?

As for the request...there is a flip side to that. We're not in the cockpit seeing what you're seeing but you're also not behind the scope seeing what we see. Just because you say you need something doesn't mean that you are immediately going to get it unless you're in some type of emergency situation. Nothing irritates me more then when I hear a pilot say he wants a different altitude for light chop and then questions me when I tell him that it may be a while. Yes, I understand that one altitude may be better than the one you're at but not everyone can be at the same altitude at the same time. The same thing goes with deviations. I understand you need to deviate but maybe there is another aircraft 5 miles to your right so I can't approve it that very minute. If you can't wait 2 minutes for your deviations then you probably waited too long to begin with to ask for them.

It's a two way street.
 
I'm not denying that... I usually keep my "demands" reasonable. It isn't until I start asking to pick up my clearance outbound while I'm still 20 miles out that I get yelled at. ;)
 
You're VFR, and the hold is at your request. You don't specify EFC's if no delay is expected. I'm not going to delay you, thus I'm not giving you an EFC.

If you are IFR, and I put you in a hold I'd give you one, even if a delay wasn't expected - for the sole purpose of lost comms. If you were IFR and you requested one, I'd ask you how long you wanted to hold, and give you one to coincide - again, in the event of lost comms.

But VFR? I'd send you on your merry way and tell you to let me know when you're outbound or you want/need something else. And honestly, if you asked me for one I'd be like "WUT?" and then make up something ridiculously hilarious :)
 
I can't add more to the EFC question as these guys covered it. What I will say, as a pilot and a controller, is use caution with the "F this guy, I'll do whatever I want as PIC" attitude. Some pilots have it, some controllers have it. It's kind of sad, really, to see such an aggressive approach from either side of the mic. We should be on the same team, even if that sounds corny.

I just watched a tape today of a controller who talked a pilot down from hypoxia and got him on the ground safely. And there have been many times a pilot questioning a clearance has prevented an error on the controller's side.

See if you can get a tour of Jacksonville Approach sometime.
 
I'd love a tour. And I should specify... We were on an IFR flight plan but we were in VMC at the time. Getting the EFC for lost comms was precisely what I was concerned with.
 
chrisreedrules said:
I'd love a tour. And I should specify... We were on an IFR flight plan but we were in VMC at the time. Getting the EFC for lost comms was precisely what I was concerned with.
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Just to make it clear, an EFC time in a hold is not for lost comms. In fact, the 7110.65 states

4−6−1. CLEARANCE TO HOLDING FIX

c. EFC. Do not specify this item if no delay is expected.
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It is for fuel planning purposes primarily. Some, as TripSix mentioned, may give it anyway in this situation, but the 7110 does not require or support that. Your lost comm procedures, as I'm sure you'll recall, say that if you're in VMC and lose comms, you should proceed VFR and land as soon as practicable. If in IMC, you should conduct the approach. (91.185)
 
chrisreedrules said:
I'd love a tour. And I should specify... We were on an IFR flight plan but we were in VMC at the time. Getting the EFC for lost comms was precisely what I was concerned with.
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You filed a flight plan which gave the amount of time enroute. When that time is close you should be shooting the approach. They are expecting you at that time.

Every hold I've ever received is followed by a reason. The other day we were getting hammered with weather and got a ridiculous reroute that took us to the edge of our fuel limits. They said we should expect holding due to flow not LGA. No big deal it happens a lot. With the controller telling us its flow related we can relay that to our dispatch and see what we can do. I know you don't have that "luxury" but it is a good thing for personal planning. If the controller said XYZ 9000 expect holding at this fix due to weather then I know it could be a while and I need to find some more dinosaur juice. I have noticed in my short aviation career that the controllers know things about a heartbeat before we do. They share as much info as possible and try to keep the chaos to a minimum.

I would also suggest getting a tour of the facility. Most controllers I have come across like hearing from pilots on neutral ground without recordings. If something isn't working or if you want to know what makes them more efficient that is a great time to ask. I did this while I was instructing down in Nogales,AZ. Went to the Tucson TRACON with a couple of my students and had a great time getting to know the voices we have heard for weeks. It was then that I asked how can I cram all of this into this amount of time. They gave me an answer before I left and it was smooth sailing after that. Best of luck and don't hesitate to ask questions.
 
chrisreedrules said:
I'd love a tour. And I should specify... We were on an IFR flight plan but we were in VMC at the time. Getting the EFC for lost comms was precisely what I was concerned with.
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You filed a flight plan which gave the amount of time enroute. When that time is close you should be shooting the approach. They are expecting you at that time.

Every hold I've ever received is followed by a reason. The other day we were getting hammered with weather and got a ridiculous reroute that took us to the edge of our fuel limits. They said we should expect holding due to flow not LGA. No big deal it happens a lot. With the controller telling us its flow related we can relay that to our dispatch and see what we can do. I know you don't have that "luxury" but it is a good thing for personal planning. If the controller said XYZ 9000 expect holding at this fix due to weather then I know it could be a while and I need to find some more dinosaur juice. I have noticed in my short aviation career that the controllers know things about a heartbeat before we do. They share as much info as possible and try to keep the chaos to a minimum.

I would also suggest getting a tour of the facility. Most controllers I have come across like hearing from pilots on neutral ground without recordings. If something isn't working or if you want to know what makes them more efficient that is a great time to ask. I did this while I was instructing down in Nogales,AZ. Went to the Tucson TRACON with a couple of my students and had a great time getting to know the voices we have heard for weeks. It was then that I asked how can I cram all of this into this amount of time. They gave me an answer before I left and it was smooth sailing after that. Best of luck and don't hesitate to ask questions.
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
Just to make it clear, an EFC time in a hold is not for lost comms. In fact, the 7110.65 states



It is for fuel planning purposes primarily. Some, as TripSix mentioned, may give it anyway in this situation, but the 7110 does not require or support that. Your lost comm procedures, as I'm sure you'll recall, say that if you're in VMC and lose comms, you should proceed VFR and land as soon as practicable. If in IMC, you should conduct the approach. (91.185)
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I know that... But how would the controller know if I was in VMC or not? We were in and out of the clouds all day. It was just the first time I was ever not given an EFC time whether I requested the hold or it was given to me and I was just wondering why, that's all. Thanks for the replies all!
 
chrisreedrules said:
I know that... But how would the controller know if I was in VMC or not? We were in and out of the clouds all day. It was just the first time I was ever not given an EFC time whether I requested the hold or it was given to me and I was just wondering why, that's all. Thanks for the replies all!
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The controller will not know for sure, but if he observes your target suddenly start squawking 7600 or 1200 and heading in some random direction, he may conclude you have lost comms in VMC.
 
chrisreedrules said:
On a side note, its a real pet-peave of mine when I hear pilots "request" things. I don't request, I tell them I need it. I'm PIC and they aren't in the cockpit seeing what I'm seeing. Just my own thoughts though.
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It is your pet peeve anytime you hear a pilot request something? It should always be a demand?
 
I just hate the word "request"... I feel like it "puts the ball in your court". It gives you all the say in whether or not what I want gets approval. Whereas if I tell you I need it, or that I'm doing it... Then you can just tell me "no" if it is not what you want me to do. This is what I've been told by several DPEs and a senior CA at AAL.
 
chrisreedrules said:
I just hate the word "request"... I feel like it "puts the ball in your court". It gives you all the say in whether or not what I want gets approval. Whereas if I tell you I need it, or that I'm doing it... Then you can just tell me "no" if it is not what you want me to do. This is what I've been told by several DPEs and a senior CA at AAL.
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I don't want to sound like an egotistical prick here but the ball is always in our court unless you declare an emergency. We are the controllers. We are the ones who are responsible for separation and the sector. If I tell you to climb to an altitude that you can't then I'm not going to have a debate with you as to why you can't -- I'll simply move on to Plan B. The same goes for what you want. Sometimes it isn't available.
 
chrisreedrules said:
I just hate the word "request"... I feel like it "puts the ball in your court". It gives you all the say in whether or not what I want gets approval. Whereas if I tell you I need it, or that I'm doing it... Then you can just tell me "no" if it is not what you want me to do. This is what I've been told by several DPEs and a senior CA at AAL.
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If you put yourself in a situation where you do before you ask the you become a major safety threat. Nice thing about flying in Florida is you see the storms for miles and can plan accordingly. Sometimes things pop up but that's why you leave yourself an out, always! Don't form bad relationships with controllers. They are a useful tool and would like to see you end up at your destination just as much as you would.
 
chrisreedrules said:
I just hate the word "request"... I feel like it "puts the ball in your court". It gives you all the say in whether or not what I want gets approval. Whereas if I tell you I need it, or that I'm doing it... Then you can just tell me "no" if it is not what you want me to do. This is what I've been told by several DPEs and a senior CA at AAL.
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I really hope, for your sake, that senior CA at AAL also enlightened you on what you can expect happening as a result of approaching situations in that manner.

They (AAL) are notorious for that behavior. And yet, can't seem to figure out why it never really ends the way they expected it to...
 
TripSix said:
I really hope, for your sake, that senior CA at AAL also enlightened you on what you can expect happening as a result of approaching situations in that manner.

They (AAL) are notorious for that behavior. And yet, can't seem to figure out why it never really ends the way they expected it to...
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"I solemnly swear that ... I will preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States ... accept all requests from Southwest Airlines, and deny those of United and American." ;) :D
 
Autothrust Blue said:
"I solemnly swear that ... I will preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States ... accept all requests from Southwest Airlines, and deny those of United and American." ;) :D
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Oh come on now, feel the LUV!

Disclaimer: Not everyone has to mix/match SWA with other carriers, and therefore shouldn't be dog-piled for making a comment like the one I just made.

:)
 
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