Question for the MEI's

[KSCessnaDriver]

Got a question for all you MEI's.

I'm working on my commerical multi, most of which consists of dealing with engine situations. I visit a lot of forums about aviation on the internet, and there is a big discussion about how to do an engine failure (as an MEI). Some people are insisting that you shouldn't use the fuel selector to kill the engine, while some people use it all the time.


So, the question becomes. What all ways do you have to "kill" the engine on a student? And why/why don't you use certain methods?

 

[esa17]

I use the fuel selector all the time. Its just about the best way to simulate an actual failure.

The worst thing that happens is you land with only one engine. If you're teaching it you had better be ready to do it.

 

[Douglas]

\
So, the question becomes. What all ways do you have to "kill" the engine on a student? And why/why don't you use certain methods?

Fuel selector - mixture - throttle - mags laff::insane

In the words of the my MEI DPE, "I stopped killing engines with the fuel selector ever since I decided to live to be an old man."


I use throttle and mixture depending on altitude. I have enough trouble getting the old seminole to fire back to life with just the mixture, I don't need to be messing with the fuel selector. Even then I did have student do a real single engine approach to landing because the couldn't get a restart with the mixture (DPE passed him).

 

[tgrayson]

So, the question becomes. What all ways do you have to "kill" the engine on a student? And why/why don't you use certain methods?

I normally use the fuel selector 3000 AGL and above. In the Seneca, it's located between the seats and you can shut the fuel off without the student seeing your hand move. Highly effective. I will occasionally use the mixture so the student has experience with other means of killing the engine.

During the takeoff roll, I use the mixture because it's quicker than the fuel selector. I cover my hand with a checklist so the student can't see which hand I'm using.

Other times, throttle only.

Some mechanics discourage the use of the fuel selector because they can be unreliable in some airplanes.

 

[beasly]

I use the fuel selector all the time. Its just about the best way to simulate an actual failure.

The worst thing that happens is you land with only one engine. If you're teaching it you had better be ready to do it.

I am in the opposite camp, but this is interesting....fwiw, I fly very conservatively.

My reasoning is this--keep your options open. With the engine running if (very unprobable) you lose the other, you can revert quickly.

That said, better pilots than me take these risks everyday, so I am open to it personally, but will not teach that way.


b.

 

[esa17]

I am in the opposite camp, but this is interesting....fwiw, I fly very conservatively.

My reasoning is this--keep your options open. With the engine running if (very unprobable) you lose the other, you can revert quickly.

That said, better pilots than me take these risks everyday, so I am open to it personally, but will not teach that way.


b.

Generally I fly very conservatively but once you've landed with an actual CE failure it becomes something you teach heavily. I'm more concerned with teaching things that are likely to happen rather than things that might happen if all 8.5 planets line up.

 

[minitour]

I've used the selector, but not often. I'm a throttle down low mixture higher kinda person. I always guard the mixtures for every takeoff and landing in case we really do toss one (on a go around or takeoff). If the student isn't quick enough to yank the good side back and just land, I'm there to do it with the mixtures.

-mini

 

[jynxyjoe]

I admit I used the fuel selector all the time for failing above 3000

I was interested in, and incorporated hitting one brake during takeoff roll to simulate an engine failure. Judges student's reaction time well and lets them see what a nose left or right will look like with no cue from their fingers.

Anyway, if the old timers are saying don't use the fuel selector I'd listen.

 

[matt152]

I use the fuel selector or mixture if we are at altitude and a location where we can reasonably make an airport on a single engine if we cannot restart.

I also use the mixture on the takeoff roll, and am ready to pull the other one if necessary.

For all other situations (i.e. pattern work, instrument approaches, etc) it is with the throttle only.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Thanks for the information guys. Its interesting to hear it from various people.

 

[shdw]

I am not an MEI, but at daniel webster below 3000 was throttle/mixture and above was fuel selector. This seemed to be pretty consistent throughout the instructors there, we used seminoles.

 

[jhugz]

I fail with the mixture/fuel selector. Lycoming has some interesting reading material about sim-failing the engine with the throttle.

 

[ProudPilot]

I believe to fail it in every way you can without risk to the engine or airframe. Not getting a restart immediately is not that big of a deal if you mitigate the risk with altitude and airspeed. I would not have the fuel selector for that engine to off within 15 knots of Vmc at higher altitudes... that's just asking to die young.

However, your student needs to become comfortable with the slew of failures that will come their way. Having an engine fail without them seeing your hand go up to cut the mixture is an important experience of being surprised and being able to adequately deal with it.

A fair number of times, throttle, or mixture. When appropriate, fuel selector needs to be on that list.

If you disagree, I will take the argument of how fuel tanks never: clog the fuel line, get contaminated, freeze with contaminants, create a vacuum, fuel selector knob breaks, creates a leak, fuel drain comes open in flight, or students crossfeed to balance cg and turn it off instead. I shall wait for the essays.

 

[jhugz]

http://www.lycoming.com/support/tips-advice/key-reprints/pdfs/Key Operations.pdf


Page 17

 

[minitour]

I fail with the mixture/fuel selector. Lycoming has some interesting reading material about sim-failing the engine with the throttle.

http://www.lycoming.com/support/tips-advice/key-reprints/pdfs/Key%20Operations.pdf


Page 17

They can publish what they want, since they get the luxury of sitting at a desk somewhere and not teaching some dude that only understands English 50% of the time that was barely competent at flying single engine airplanes. After 50% of Vmc on the ground, I'm only touching the mixture if I need to recover and save my ass.

Also, at 400' with the gear up and struggling to maintain Vyse, I'm not going to touch the mixture. If I want to simulate an engine failure below 1000', it's with the throttle. Same thing coming downhill.

-mini

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Here is the main reason I asked about this fuel selector issue. I was talking to some guys who were very worried about getting air in the fuel lines by shutting the fuel selector off. I didn't think this would be an issue, because you could always turn a fuel pump on, to push the air through the line, and you'd get the fuel going again. correct?

 

[jhugz]

They can publish what they want, since they get the luxury of sitting at a desk somewhere and not teaching some dude that only understands English 50% of the time that was barely competent at flying single engine airplanes. After 50% of Vmc on the ground, I'm only touching the mixture if I need to recover and save my ass.

Also, at 400' with the gear up and struggling to maintain Vyse, I'm not going to touch the mixture. If I want to simulate an engine failure below 1000', it's with the throttle. Same thing coming downhill.

-mini

I agree 100% if we are talking about below 1000' AGL type stuff. I thought we were talking about stuff higher up then pattern altitude, my bad.

And to the OP as for air in the lines, yes the fuel pump should fix any problems to my understanding.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I normally use the fuel selector 3000 AGL and above. In the Seneca, it's located between the seats and you can shut the fuel off without the student seeing your hand move. Highly effective. I will occasionally use the mixture so the student has experience with other means of killing the engine.

Yup. I'm working on my Commerical Multi in one now, and would agree with that. Works on an Aztec too. Its very obvious your getting an engine failure when either A: The instructor puts his hands up on the quadrant or B: A large paper covers the quadrant. With the fuel selectors, you don't always notice it.

 

[mshunter]

Here is the main reason I asked about this fuel selector issue. I was talking to some guys who were very worried about getting air in the fuel lines by shutting the fuel selector off. I didn't think this would be an issue, because you could always turn a fuel pump on, to push the air through the line, and you'd get the fuel going again. correct?

 

[floridaCFII]

On the runway, mixture. Throttle below 3,000. Above 3,000 is fuel selector or mixture, depending on my mood. I prefer the fuel selector because the student usually doesn't notice what I'm up to until the engine shuts off.