Question about PDCs and IFR Clearance time frame

JustinS

JustinS

Well-Known Member
So yesterday was an interesting day. We had a lot of delays, and ended up in ORD 2 hours late. We get to the gate, unload the passengers. Initialize ACARS on the FMS so we can get our PDC for our next leg. PDC came out no problem. Release was good. Flight plan filed. etc. We call ramp for push, taxi out. Switch over to metering, and lo and behold they don't have our flight plan on file... They tell us we need to have our company refile, and we got taxi instructions to the holding pad, and monitored clearance and shot a message to dispatch to file a new flight plan.

So my question is. How could we get a PDC (which IS our IFR clearance), and then depart the gate, and they tell us we have nothing on file? Is there a time period before a PDC/Clearance can expire? That's my best guess as to what happened. Is there anyway to prevent the PDC from expiring? It just doesn't make sense to me how the PDC could have expired though. Any thoughts from the ATC guys?

Thanks!
 
JustinS said:
So yesterday was an interesting day. We had a lot of delays, and ended up in ORD 2 hours late. We get to the gate, unload the passengers. Initialize ACARS on the FMS so we can get our PDC for our next leg. PDC came out no problem. Release was good. Flight plan filed. etc. We call ramp for push, taxi out. Switch over to metering, and lo and behold they don't have our flight plan on file... They tell us we need to have our company refile, and we got taxi instructions to the holding pad, and monitored clearance and shot a message to dispatch to file a new flight plan.

So my question is. How could we get a PDC (which IS our IFR clearance), and then depart the gate, and they tell us we have nothing on file? Is there a time period before a PDC/Clearance can expire? That's my best guess as to what happened. Is there anyway to prevent the PDC from expiring? It just doesn't make sense to me how the PDC could have expired though. Any thoughts from the ATC guys?

Thanks!
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Did your dispatch just refile or did they ask any questions first; for instance "did you receive rlse amd 1?"

I ask because occasionally when mx adds a MEL I will shoot an amd over ACARS, if I don't get response I will call, if the captain doesn't answer I will call ATC to remove the strip.

Not at all captains are great at comparing the mx log book to the dispatch release and I would really hate to have to file a ASAP over something like that.
 
Luigi said:
Did your dispatch just refile or did they ask any questions first; for instance "did you receive rlse amd 1?"

I ask because occasionally when mx adds a MEL I will shoot an amd over ACARS, if I don't get response I will call, if the captain doesn't answer I will call ATC to remove the strip.

Not at all captains are great at comparing the mx log book to the dispatch release and I would really hate to have to file a ASAP over something like that.
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Nope, this captain as pretty much every captain I've flown with is super OCD and meticulous about those details, and I do my job to back them up and check it all myself. All of that was in order. No MX issues or amendments required or made on our turn in ORD.

Dispatcher just refiled no questions asked, and we got our new filed flight plan off the ACARS printer which was the same exact as the original one.

Also when we do have an MX issue come up, we have several things we have to input into ACARS, and specific messages we need to receive on ACARS before we can go all of that in addition to making sure we have the amended release in hand, and proper paper work.
 
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JustinS said:
Nope, this captain as pretty much every captain I've flown with is super OCD and meticulous about those details, and I do my job to back them up and check it all myself. All of that was in order. No MX issues or amendments required or made on our turn in ORD.

Dispatcher just refiled no questions asked, and we got our new filed flight plan off the ACARS printer which was the same exact as the original one.

Also when we do have an MX issue come up, we have several things we have to input into ACARS, and specific messages we need to receive on ACARS before we can go all of that in addition to making sure we have the amended release in hand, and proper paper work.
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Ok I apologize, I never meant to infer that you're anything other than perfect when it comes to this. Realize that I deal with around 53 different flights a day and unfortunately not all crews are as diligent as you are.
 
Luigi said:
Ok I apologize, I never meant to infer that you're anything other than perfect when it comes to this. Realize that I deal with around 53 different flights a day and unfortunately not all crews are as diligent as you are.
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I'm not saying I'm perfect, but operational control is a big deal, and you can't really afford to not be 110% legal with that. We don't mess around with that stuff. We make sure every MEL is being properly complied with, and documented on the DMI sheet, on the equipment, and in the maintenance log as well as the proper MEL being shown on the release.

Anyways, that's definitely something I'll keep in mind for the future of having a dispatcher possibly pulling the flight plan. But it just doesn't make sense to get a PDC, and then have it disappear. Was curious if a controller had any input on how PDCs work on their end, or if it's 100% automated, or if there's a system in place that automatically drops PDCs for one reason or another.
 
Is this simply a problem of your release timing out after you received your clearance, due to the delays you mentioned? The flight plan is only good for two hours, so if the original two hours expired after you got the PDC, it was dropped when two hours hit and you hadn't yet taken off?
 
Beefy McGee said:
Is this simply a problem of your release timing out after you received your clearance, due to the delays you mentioned? The flight plan is only good for two hours, so if the original two hours expired after you got the PDC, it was dropped when two hours hit and you hadn't yet taken off?
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No the delay was earlier in the day, and pushed back our entire day. We were only on the ground in ORD about 30 minutes from door open to door close. We got the PDC, and were out within 30 minutes of receiving that PDC.
 
The computer, ERAM, will only hold onto a flight plan for two hours past the proposed departure time.

What might of happened, as others were alluding to, was that you got your PDC just before the two hour window closed. As soon as your proposal hits two hours it turns into a pumpkin and is gone forever. So when you talked to atc they had no flight plan at that time.

I work at a center and have had an aircraft depart from an approach control and his flight plan dropped out as he was rolling. In that instance clearance delivery failed to not adjust the proposal time to ensure that didn't happen.

When I give a clearance off the ground I always look at the p time to make sure it won't drop out...but you can't necessary do that at a major airport with all aircraft.

One thing to remember with PDC is that it is a one way street....just because you have your PDC does not mean things like this cannot happen. As the computer sees it...your flight plan is not active until you depart and ARTS auto departs your flight plan, or a departure message is entered by a controller.
 
BWER said:
The computer, ERAM, will only hold onto a flight plan for two hours past the proposed departure time.

What might of happened, as others were alluding to, was that you got your PDC just before the two hour window closed. As soon as your proposal hits two hours it turns into a pumpkin and is gone forever. So when you talked to atc they had no flight plan at that time.

I work at a center and have had an aircraft depart from an approach control and his flight plan dropped out as he was rolling. In that instance clearance delivery failed to not adjust the proposal time to ensure that didn't happen.

When I give a clearance off the ground I always look at the p time to make sure it won't drop out...but you can't necessary do that at a major airport with all aircraft.

One thing to remember with PDC is that it is a one way street....just because you have your PDC does not mean things like this cannot happen. As the computer sees it...your flight plan is not active until you depart and ARTS auto departs your flight plan, or a departure message is entered by a controller.
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Thanks for the explanation. That's more than likely what happened.
 
JustinS said:
So yesterday was an interesting day. We had a lot of delays, and ended up in ORD 2 hours late. We get to the gate, unload the passengers. Initialize ACARS on the FMS so we can get our PDC for our next leg. PDC came out no problem. Release was good. Flight plan filed. etc. We call ramp for push, taxi out. Switch over to metering, and lo and behold they don't have our flight plan on file... They tell us we need to have our company refile, and we got taxi instructions to the holding pad, and monitored clearance and shot a message to dispatch to file a new flight plan.

So my question is. How could we get a PDC (which IS our IFR clearance), and then depart the gate, and they tell us we have nothing on file? Is there a time period before a PDC/Clearance can expire? That's my best guess as to what happened. Is there anyway to prevent the PDC from expiring? It just doesn't make sense to me how the PDC could have expired though. Any thoughts from the ATC guys?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
The flight plan drops 2 hours after filed ETD if the plan has not been opened. Sounds like you were over 2 hours. Probably as simple as that. But with all those ACARSs and FMSs and other "machines that go PING" y'all got, maybe it was something else.
 
JustinS said:
Thanks for the explanation. That's more than likely what happened.
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Look at the flight plan portion of your release. The time in that portion is the proposed time for your clearance. If you are pushing the two hour mark, call clearance delivery and have them update the proposed time.

Or just get dispatch to refile you and get new paperwork.
 
ctab5060X said:
Look at the flight plan portion of your release. The time in that portion is the proposed time for your clearance. If you are pushing the two hour mark, call clearance delivery and have them update the proposed time.

Or just get dispatch to refile you and get new paperwork.
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Yeah that's something that's always driven me crazy. I'm of the opinion that if the 2 hour mark has passed its in everyone's best interest to create a new release. I've had disagreements in the past over whether or not a write in amendment will suffice.
 
Just a FYI the NORMAL drop for flight plans is 2 hours from the P time but the Z facility can change the drop time from 2 hours, mostly when there is WX the drop can be 4 to 6 hours or what ever they need.
 
From what I understand, ERAM has a much higher capacity and our flight plans are always in for 3 hours at a minimum now, and many times good for 4 hours. Maybe it depends on area and volume, though....I can't speak to that.
 
Jetfreq said:
From what I understand, ERAM has a much higher capacity and our flight plans are always in for 3 hours at a minimum now, and many times good for 4 hours. Maybe it depends on area and volume, though....I can't speak to that.
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That definitely depends on the facilities adaptation. ZME is set for two hours, I believe this is adjustable in the fly but don't quote me. It's been a while since I've hung around the FAAST office.
 
ZLC and ZHU are both two hours for default drops. Can be changed to a four hour drop, maybe more but I haven't seen it yet.
 
Luigi said:
Ok I apologize, I never meant to infer that you're anything other than perfect when it comes to this. Realize that I deal with around 53 different flights a day and unfortunately not all crews are as diligent as you are.
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Code: 
CRUISE: CSTID
...
MEL (___): ACARS - COMMUNICATIONS MANAGEMENT FUNCTION
DISPATCH MUST PLAN USING FIXED MACH NUMBER - NO COST INDEX
icant.jpg
 
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