PSA New Hire FO Classes Suspended

chrisreedrules said:
First of all, I don't think I'm entitled to a single thing. I'm only interested in what is best for our pilot group now and in the future. What I'm telling you is that if we would like to staff our airline, keep airplane deliveries coming, and not park the 200s we need more than 6-7 /month. No one is going to wait around for 15 years to flow to mainline and more importantly, it isn't going to work to attract new hires. Envoy is flowing over 20 /month. The flow won't even exist by that time myself or anyone hired today has that much time at PSA. Good for you guys who have been here that long. I have nothing but respect for your fortitude and perseverance. But the game is changing more rapidly than management seems willing to keep up with. You do know that one of our recruiters basically let it be known that we would retire the 200s on a one for one basis of we can't staff the incoming 7/900s. I fear that will become a reality as our staffing situation worsens. There are A LOT of frustrated pilots at PSA right now. I am only one of the more vocal ones.
Click to expand...
Envoy only flow 20/month for a limited time. The new deal they accepted takes that number down SIGNIFICANTLY in the next year, will be in line with what we will get. Their flow #'s are based on 3 groups of the pilots, all depending on what time frame they were hired in.
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
Attrition hasn't gone over 10/month...yet. I sit in the top 35%, and this last month was the largest jump I made, 10 positions higher. 4 of those due to "flow" to AA. I understand that a few more junior folks are leaving, but we are not yet at 20/month. However, many of my fo's are not waiting, they are going for lcc's and even corporate. Surprisimg number that are interested in finding part 91/91k/135 gigs. Few of them can actually qualify for those, being a former corporate guy myself, knowing how that can go, not sure why they want that. We have a large group of jr fo's that are long in the tooth and won't move on because of their age, quick upgrade for them, as they come from brand X, etc; and our training department needs them.
Click to expand...
The company has FOs bailing left and right. 5 or 6 from my class have left. With more looking to leave. I'm here for the next year, but after that I'm probably gone too unless they fix the SAP or give us meaningful and realistic career progression. And a lot of people prefer 91/135 flying (myself included). Why not go to a corporate or charter/fractional flight department and start out making what a CA at PSA will make and with a better schedule? Regional's and 121 in general doesn't hold the same allure for the millennials as it did for those who came before us.
 
chrisreedrules said:
The company has FOs bailing left and right. 5 or 6 from my class have left. With more looking to leave. I'm here for the next year, but after that I'm probably gone too unless they fix the SAP or give us meaningful and realistic career progression. And a lot of people prefer 91/135 flying (myself included). Why not go to a corporate or charter/fractional flight department and start out making what a CA at PSA will make and with a better schedule? Regional's and 121 in general doesn't hold the same allure for the millennials as it did for those who came before us.
Click to expand...
Best of luck to you, just don't lose sight of your personal "big picture". Corporate is great, but a very difficult path for longevity, I know, I have been there and many of my friends can attest to that. Only the very fortunate very few can pull off a career only in that realm, most end up transitioning to 121 after 10 years of trying to survive the 91 thang. Yes many 135 gigs you can make as much money early on if not more than you can in the first few years at the regional even as a captain, however the top end in the big picture is always much lower when you really look at what your potential is in the 121 world. That being said I don't want to discourage anyone from following what they want to do it is a personal decision. Im a Gen-X er myself and what I find is the problem is with many of the Millennials and the younger ones is that everybody wants what they want they want it now and no one wants to wait or work hard for it. Not saying that suffrage is some sort of rite of passage, however there is something to be said for seeing something through to the end and the sense of pleasure and fulfillment that one can get from that. It is always much more satisfying than instant gratification. And when you grow where you are planted you tend to build some great relationships.
 
chrisreedrules said:
First of all, I don't think I'm entitled to a single thing. I'm only interested in what is best for our pilot group now and in the future. What I'm telling you is that if we would like to staff our airline, keep airplane deliveries coming, and not park the 200s we need more than 6-7 /month. No one is going to wait around for 15 years to flow to mainline and more importantly, it isn't going to work to attract new hires. Envoy is flowing over 20 /month. The flow won't even exist by that time myself or anyone hired today has that much time at PSA. Good for you guys who have been here that long. I have nothing but respect for your fortitude and perseverance. But the game is changing more rapidly than management seems willing to keep up with. You do know that one of our recruiters basically let it be known that we would retire the 200s on a one for one basis of we can't staff the incoming 7/900s. I fear that will become a reality as our staffing situation worsens. There are A LOT of frustrated pilots at PSA right now. I am only one of the more vocal ones.
Click to expand...

I would love 12 per month, so explain to me and the negotiators how to acheive that when AAG doesn't have to offer us anything.......Why woud you worry about the future of PSA being able to attract pilots? That is for management to worry about, it isn't for us to care about how AAG plans to staff us. If it is going to get as bad as you say it is then they will be back to make improvements to our contract and flow so in the mean time until they do 8 flowing a month is better than 4 going to interview correct? This new agreement isn't set in stone until the end of the world, as the shortage worsens they will make improvements, we are barely into the 1st inning of all of this. I just find it a little odd that you are already that upset and that fearful only a few months into your 121 career at a place you will be able to upgrade when you hit 1000 hrs and probably have a nice defined career path to the largest airline in the world if you don't get hired somewhere else. Just fly the airplanes, don't worry about staffing them. You are going to have career progression better than 100% of the pilots flowing to AA now.
 
This is exactly what I've tried to tell chrisreedrules before. What does AAG gain by giving you the flow? Guaranteed pilots? It's 2015, plenty to choose from.

And if they don't do it what changes for them? Nothing. Staffing PSA is not their problem. Can't make it work? They'll just send the flying to someone else. Not AAGs problem. Don't let the fact that you're wholly owned make you think you work for AAG.
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
Attrition hasn't gone over 10/month...yet. I sit in the top 35%, and this last month was the largest jump I made, 10 positions higher. 4 of those due to "flow" to AA. I understand that a few more junior folks are leaving, but we are not yet at 20/month. However, many of my fo's are not waiting, they are going for lcc's and even corporate. Surprisimg number that are interested in finding part 91/91k/135 gigs. Few of them can actually qualify for those, being a former corporate guy myself, knowing how that can go, not sure why they want that. We have a large group of jr fo's that are long in the tooth and won't move on because of their age, quick upgrade for them, as they come from brand X, etc; and our training department needs them.
Click to expand...

Regarding attrition, much further down the list, I am averaging moving up the seniority list by 13 spots a month.
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
Envoy only flow 20/month for a limited time. The new deal they accepted takes that number down SIGNIFICANTLY in the next year, will be in line with what we will get. Their flow #'s are based on 3 groups of the pilots, all depending on what time frame they were hired in.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't.

Goes UP to 30 with first 175 delivery until completion of arbitrators award. Then 25 a month until the last pilot flows that was hired before October 11, 2011. Then it goes to 15 a month. Then it's a formula of 5 flows per every 125 pilots above a base of 480 pilots.
 
Last edited:
chrisreedrules said:
The company has FOs bailing left and right. 5 or 6 from my class have left. With more looking to leave. I'm here for the next year, but after that I'm probably gone too unless they fix the SAP or give us meaningful and realistic career progression. And a lot of people prefer 91/135 flying (myself included). Why not go to a corporate or charter/fractional flight department and start out making what a CA at PSA will make and with a better schedule? Regional's and 121 in general doesn't hold the same allure for the millennials as it did for those who came before us.
Click to expand...
This is why I try to dissuade people from joining an airline based on upgrade times.
 
I highly recommend you spend more time listening, and less time advocating, while on probation. That has nothing to do with experience level, it has everything to do with perspective. Take the time during your year to learn about your union, the company, negotiating history, etc. This isn't the first vote, won't be the last, and knowing your history is important.

It's a bit unnerving to hear you claim you're "educating pilots that can vote."
 
bLizZuE said:
No it doesn't.

Goes UP to 30 with first 175 delivery until completion of arbitrators award. Then 25 a month until the last pilot flows that was hired before October 11, 2011. Then it goes to 15 a month. Then it's a formula of 5 flows per every 125 pilots above a base of 480 pilots.
Click to expand...
Thank you, I knew I wasnt wholly correct, but wanted to draw out someone who knew...
 
bLizZuE said:
I highly recommend you spend more time listening, and less time advocating, while on probation. That has nothing to do with experience level, it has everything to do with perspective. Take the time during your year to learn about your union, the company, negotiating history, etc. This isn't the first vote, won't be the last, and knowing your history is important.

It's a bit unnerving to hear you claim you're "educating pilots that can vote."
Click to expand...
In hindsight, that sounded arrogant and pompous... That's not how I meant it. I just meant that I won't be shy to share my opinion on things if the subject comes up. I know as an FO I'm supposed to be a chameleon in the right seat, and I do my best to do that. But some things get me worked up. Religion and politics meh, I can not talk about that stuff. Contract and money get me worked up.
 
I know that's not how you meant it, but I'd rather you hear it from me, than from somebody you just offended to your left.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top