PSA CRJ-700 AA midair collision

[MikeD]

Night time visual behind traffic well typically hold just outside of the 2.5-3.5mi ring on tcas. In the dark I’ve seen people creeping up because distance can be hard to judge off blinking lights.

More so if the CRJ was holding final flaps on the visual circle and had a somewhat temporary overtake.

Also, these helo route ground tracks have little room for left/right off track. But I’ve asked for a 360 before when I either couldn’t see traffic that was called to me, or have been assigned same by tower in similar situations. In this case, the CRJ was called in sight, so things were continued as normal.

 

[Wardogg]

That's why helos (or any traffic) shouldnt be crossing the approach path at an altitude that would be on that path. They should be way high or way low not at 1000' 3 mi from the extended centerline.

If the ADSB data can be trusted looks like the impact was below 500ft

 

[Kingairer]

Visual separation is easier at night than during the day in one primary way: Much easier to see lit up aircraft IF….looking low to high, or even level.

If looking high to low, can be nearly impossible in an urban area though.

Sure I can see the lights flashing , but it can be hard to tell proximity, closure rate, direction of travel, who it is, etc at night. I rarely do it. We have some nice ADSB tech on the 321 which greatly improves this type of situation.

 

[tomokc]

Would this Blackhawk have a CVR? If so, there might be crew comms of them looking for and/or identifying the PSA on approach.

 

[FlyingAccountant]

We finally ran out of luck.

 

[bbmikej]

That's why helos (or any traffic) shouldnt be crossing the approach path at an altitude that would be on that path. They should be way high or way low not at 1000' 3 mi from the extended centerline.

That ADSBExchange map has them at 200 around Hains Point and climbing to 350 when they collided.

 

[MikeD]

If the ADSB data can be trusted looks like the impact was below 500ft

Does it indicate if the Blackhawk was over the river center, over the Route ground track?

 

[Kingairer]

If the ADSB data can be trusted looks like the impact was below 500ft

It looks like the helo made a sharp turn to go west of the aircraft not expecting the CRJ (or forgetting) that the CRJ would be turning that way. I dont know.

 

[Cory Trevor]

I doubt it had anything to do with it, but also seems like less of a safety margin when keeping visual separation during a circling approach as opposed to a more predictable straight in.

 

[H46Bubba]

Helicopter Route 4 runs up the Potomac between DCA and BOF at a hard 1000’ MSL, crossing the approach end of RW33

Flew that route many times for DFAM flights.

 

[Maurus]

It is the wild west with helicopters at DCA. I had plenty of problems with them in the past. It was only a matter of time. That airspace either needs a full on restructuring or eliminated for certain aircraft.

Having helicopters actively circling the Pentagon and making transitions under aircraft flying complex approaches next to prohibited airspace was never a good idea.

 

[Roger Roger]

View attachment 81816

Also, these helo route ground tracks have little room for left/right off track. But I’ve asked for a 360 before when I either couldn’t see traffic that was called to me, or have been assigned same by tower in similar situations. In this case, the CRJ was called in sight, so things were continued as normal.

Comparing this radar track with the route as published (unsure the veracity of either of these pieces of data) it doesn’t look like holding to the route very closely.

Edit: one of the posts I tried to quote won’t quote.

 

[///AMG]

We finally ran out of luck.

My thoughts as well.

 

[Kingairer]

I doubt it had anything to do with it, but also seems like less of a safety margin when keeping visual separation during a circling approach as opposed to a more predictable straight in.

Absolutely. Maintaining visuals with an aircraft that landing in the same direction as you, joining the final 3 miles ahead of you, is much different than this.

 

[Wardogg]

Does it indicate if the Blackhawk was over the river center, over the Route ground track?

Minuteman has this screenshot.

View attachment 81816

 

[bbmikej]

For both tracks and altitudes.

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live - aircraft flight history

globe.adsbexchange.com

 

[NovemberEcho]

That’s a function of where TRACON either wants them, or where they must be for airspace reasons. I’m sure this will get a second look.

This was DCA tower, not Potomac. My question is if traffic was ever told to the CRJ

 

[MikeD]

Sure I can see the lights flashing , but it can be hard to tell proximity, closure rate, direction of travel, who it is, etc at night. I rarely do it. We have some nice ADSB tech on the 321 which greatly improves this type of situation.

Which is why high to low is much harder to see.

This was DCA tower, not Potomac. My question is if traffic was ever told to the CRJ

Correct. But doesn’t TRACON own the airspace design, in terms of routes, altitudes, etc; as it would come to any remaking of same?

 

[Maurus]

Reports saying PSA flight had 60 pax and 4 crew

This is accurate.

 

[Kingairer]

Does it indicate if the Blackhawk was over the river center, over the Route ground track?

The recording I have heard sounds like the time from call out to impact is very brief. It quite plausible they called out the wrong traffic since there was likely one hot on their trail landing on runway 1. Alot going on in a short amount of time and small amount of airspace.