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NTSB briefing, if it hasn't already been posted -
PSA CRJ-700 AA midair collision
- Thread starter swakid8
- Start date
Indeed. If the Blackhawk accepted visual separation, then the onus fell upon them to not hit the traffic they were supposed to be separating from.
Likely phraseology. If I’m given traffic that’s close and I can see it fine, I’ll often reply that k have it in sight and maintaining visual separation, just to give the controller confidence that I see it and to avoid vectors for myself or the other traffic. The other traffic will advise that I have them in sight and am maintaining visual, and I take that responsibility seriously and safely.
Agreed. And I think final point regarding cost/benefit may be an interesting tertiary factor. If this was indeed a training mission by a VIP unit, and if the nature of the training was (for sake of argument) familiarization of the VFR routes or area fam, are there other routes or areas where it could’ve been accomplished rather than a final approach choke point at the confluence of the river and the extended centerline of 33. Secondarily, and as a recommendation to DOD, to gauge how many VIP units are needed in the DCA area, in order to potentially relieve helo congestion. Same as, like you say, EMS helos that are often used for transport convenience instead of true critical patient need. That said, I’m not certain yet what the Blackhawk’s exact mission that evening was. And whether it was real world, or a training mission. And if the latter, what kind of training.
inigo88
Composite-lover
Watching this while becoming more familiar with the helo route and the circle to land runway 33, I think DCA has been on borrowed time for a while. Even with tower’s “hey you sure you have the traffic in sight?” call and the army helo’s confirmation and re-request for visual sep, they’ve been putting too much trust in the pilots.
With final traffic that low crossing the river co-altitude with the helos, they need to be exercising more positive control and holding those helos outside of the approach corridor and only clearing them through between arrivals. Some examples of this are the highway 101 transition at SFO (which holds VFRs to protect the Rwy 28 departure corridor), the mini-route at LAX and the offshore transition at SAN.
Given how the local controller was working local and the helo frequency combined, I’m sure DCA tower is perfectly staffed to accommodate this additional workload. /s
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Yep, remains to be seen if it’s true that it was a training mission, and if so the nature of the training, but all of us who have instructed know full well the additional hazards that training in busy airspace brings
CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
There's some tragic irony here about lack of staffing at Reagan National.
For those that are new to the industry:
View: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/05/1025018833/looking-back-on-when-president-reagan-fired-air-traffic-controllers
It also came apparent, that this might be the first time many junior people in the industry have experienced a fatal airline accident since it has been 15 years since the previous one.
Just my initial impressions are that there are a lot of things potentially lining up…a runway change/CTL, night visual separation (possibly with limited field of view on NVGs), the usual abysmal controller staffing (fatigue), regional airline crew scheduling (fatigue), incredibly tight airspace, oh and obviously DEI hires and ignoring that the plane with lights on has the right of way.
Look, I get moving “political” posts. I totally get it. But this investigation became political the moment POTUS opened his mouth and started spewing ignorance. The NTSB never has an easy job but this one is going to be particularly hard. I can only imagine how tough getting people (especially federal employees) to cooperate with the investigation without fear of repercussion will be.
Look, I get moving “political” posts. I totally get it. But this investigation became political the moment POTUS opened his mouth and started spewing ignorance. The NTSB never has an easy job but this one is going to be particularly hard. I can only imagine how tough getting people (especially federal employees) to cooperate with the investigation without fear of repercussion will be.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
One of this level maybe, but Penair and SWA engine kaboom weren’t that long ago…
CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
True. A qualifying statement is in order. Fatal crash of a passenger airline. There's been fatal events, (SWA, Atlas, and such), but nothing like this since Colgan.
GolfChuck
Trustworthy Source
They altitude is just a last line of defense, it is not designed for comfortable safety, but a last line of defense.
At someone who stares up final approach courses all day for a living, I can tell you at night it is very easy to have the sequence screwed up. I don't know if it is parallax or some other sort of optical phenomena but when aircraft are lined up in trail at the same altitude, at night it often appears that the trailing aircraft is closer when the first aircraft has not yet or has just started descending on the glide path. During the day it's no factor because the second aircraft is likely not even visible anyway.
I don't know if DCA has a class b airspace like NYC, I feel like if they did they would be a lv 10 instead of a 9. In the VAS video, both aircraft are on * tags, which to me indicates they probably don't have a separate sector. However it is likely when running this config there would be separate arrival and departure local controllers.
ERfly
Well-Known Member
For those saying it was a last-minute runway change or a runway change in general, that may not be exactly true. I can't tell you the number of times, getting the runway assignment on initial check-in with Potomac that it was, "Expect Mt. Vernon Visual to 1, circle to land 33." They probably knew it was coming. It's nearly standard procedure for RJs in and out of there.
guywhoflies
Y'NO WUT IM SAYIN
Especially with the gusty winds out of the NW. Heck, the next PSA flight that checked on requested the circle to 33.
“
There are so far no indications that emergency evacuation slides were deployed on the commercial plane after its crash into the Potomac River on Wednesday night, National Transportation Safety Board member Todd Inman said.
“Right now, we’re going through the debris fields. Nothing we’ve seen would indicate that maybe slides or shoots were deployed,” he said. “It was a very quick, rapid impact.”
He cautioned that the NTSB still needs to verify that information.”
Well seeing as the CRJ doesn’t HAVE slides…. You’d be hard presssd to find any.
Plane had "very quick, rapid impact," NTSB member says
From CNN's Eric LevensonThere are so far no indications that emergency evacuation slides were deployed on the commercial plane after its crash into the Potomac River on Wednesday night, National Transportation Safety Board member Todd Inman said.
“Right now, we’re going through the debris fields. Nothing we’ve seen would indicate that maybe slides or shoots were deployed,” he said. “It was a very quick, rapid impact.”
He cautioned that the NTSB still needs to verify that information.”
Well seeing as the CRJ doesn’t HAVE slides…. You’d be hard presssd to find any.
ERfly
Well-Known Member
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
Why relax? This is also part of the problem. It's ok not to know. It's not ok to be the spokesperson for the investigating body and spout off a bunch of stuff that makes you look like an idiot to those that do know. How hard would it have been to get some details before going up there in front of the cameras and running their mouth?
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
I wonder if this is a red herring similar to the one that surfaced following the KLEX Comair crash.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
A lot of those missions are training for evac in the event of catastrophe where certain political figures (think line of succession) need to be moved quickly.
ahw01
Well-Known Member
You taking bout POTUS right
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
In addition to. Yes. But this thread isn't the place for that.